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[BTW, I am not the BitFlipper on the Cakewalk forums...]
I have to say, RB is quite buggy. Here are a few examples:
First example:
I imported a BiaB song which had various bar settings at individual bars. Mute/unmute some instruments, that sort of thing. Those bars are shown with a red box around the bar number in BiaB. In RB, the imported song would show similar red boxes around the bar numbers, except they were now at the WRONG bars. I believe they were offset by two bars or something. So the generated song would play completely wrong because the instruments would be muted/unmuted at the wrong locations.
EDIT 1: How do I remove bar settings from within RB? So far I was unable to figure out how to do that.
Edit 2: It looks like the bar settings appearing on the wrong bars might be caused by deleting measures before those bar settings. So RB shifts all the data in the measures but not the bar settings. But even before deleting any measures, the bar settings are applied at the wrong locations. After deleting measures, the bar settings are applied at different measures, but still at the wrong locations.
Second example:
So I had some generated RealTracks in RB. I then tried to generate a MIDI track using a different style. The MIDI track was below all the RealTracks. As I was struggling to make it work (see Third example below), at some point my first RealTrack (the bass track) suddenly changed to a track that contains MIDI notes even though i wasn't even working anywhere near that track. The waveform was no longer visible, but the mysterious MIDI notes were. I then did an Undo, but nothing happened. I did another Undo, and this time things I changed previously was undone. Which means I could not undo the change that happened to the RealTrack, but I could only undo all my steps prior to that. I then tried to force the bass track to re-generate, but got a warning that I could not do that with a track that contains MIDI data. I then selected the whole track and deleted all the MIDI notes. Again I tried to re-generate the RealTrack, and again I got a message about not being able to do it because it already contains MIDI data. OK, so the RealTrack is now lost. How do I get it back?
Third example:
For some reason, when I generate data on a MIDI track, some parts of it refuse to play back, while other parts do. There are MIDI notes throughout the whole track, but some parts just refuse to make any sound. This might just be a setting where it is following some bar settings as mentioned in the First example, but since I could not figure out any rhyme or reason for exactly why it seemed to happen at random points in the song, I assume this is a bug.
These kinds of problems just make using RB a pain to use, and I end up struggling to work around these issues instead of focusing on the music.
Note: I have RB 2010 build 2. I just downloaded 2010 build 4 but I read through the release notes and I didn't see any of these issues fixed (or maybe I just missed it). Were any of these issues fixed in build 4?
Last edited by BitFlipper; 04/23/10 12:47 PM.
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Others may give you a point by point detailed answer but I'll just say this. All these points are correct normal functions and are in the manual. I'll just give you two examples:
In point 2 "the midi track was below all the Real Tracks". Right, RT's are not midi they're audio tracks, read the manual about the difference between Band in a Box tracks and regular audio/midi tracks. It's true it's a bit confusing for a noob but you really have to read the book and this RB forum. In point 3 you talk about some notes not playing on a midi track. That almost certainly is caused by a given instrument being out of normal playing range of the midi notes in the track like notes below the low E on a bass guitar track or high notes on a trombone track or whatever. Some synths will play those notes, some won't it depends. That has nothing to do with RB.
Bob
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Quote:
Others may give you a point by point detailed answer but I'll just say this. All these points are correct normal functions and are in the manual. I'll just give you two examples:
In point 2 "the midi track was below all the Real Tracks". Right, RT's are not midi they're audio tracks, read the manual about the difference between Band in a Box tracks and regular audio/midi tracks. It's true it's a bit confusing for a noob but you really have to read the book and this RB forum. In point 3 you talk about some notes not playing on a midi track. That almost certainly is caused by a given instrument being out of normal playing range of the midi notes in the track like notes below the low E on a bass guitar track or high notes on a trombone track or whatever. Some synths will play those notes, some won't it depends. That has nothing to do with RB.
Bob
Are you for real? I said the MIDI notes appeared on top of the RealTrack where they should not have been in the 1st place. In the second point you bring up, the MIDI notes are all more or less in the same range [in fact, they are the same chords repeating throughout the song]. The fact that in some measures they play fine, but in others those same notes are muted makes your point moot.
Maybe you are the noob here. A noob at reading comprehension. Are you just such a big PGMusic fanboy that you believe their products have no bugs?
Unbelievable...
Last edited by BitFlipper; 04/23/10 01:05 PM.
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That was fairly rude from someone asking for help.
It wasn't a very helpful answer apparently, but anyway ..
I wish I could help, but I have never experienced this. I do believe there is a two bar difference in the numbering of bars for the two programs. Realband will have -1 as I'm sure you noticed.
The latest update does correct a few other issues that might have been related. (Fixed: In the F5 Bar settings - when you select to Mute "ALL BB Instr." OR the Soloist track in the Bar Settings dialog, ANY RealTrack that you generate conforms to those settings...) I would definately suggest updating and see if it still happens.
I didn't know the mute/unmute from BiaB was a feature that RB would respond to. There are many other ways to accomplish this in RB, but if it is opening and using these from BiaB then maybe you have found a bug. It seems something like this was discussed recently, maybe in the Off-Topic or BiaB sections, hopefully someone with more BiaB experience can chime in.
The combination of problems you had is strange, since I really haven't heard of any of these problems on their own, let alone all happening in one session.
Last edited by rharv; 04/23/10 01:30 PM.
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Quote:
Are you for real? Maybe you are the noob here. A noob at reading comprehension. Are you just such a big PGMusic fanboy that you believe their products have no bugs?
I guess you don't actually want any help with your problems, then...
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2025/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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rharv, are you saying I am the person that was rude? I was responding to jazzmammel's rude reply to mine. I think not being able to comprehend the issue at hand, and then calling someone a noob is pretty rude.
BTW, here are the steps to reproduce the issue as mentioned in my second point:
Have an RB song with some RealTracks.
1. Select a RT, right-click and select "Generate MIDI Track" and select one of the track types to generate. Notice that you get the warning that you cannot do that, which is expected (are you paying attention jazzmammel? I am clearly saying that this is the expected behavior).
2. Now select and then right-click a MIDI track, and do the same. Notice this time you don't get a warning, and the MIDI data is generated, as expected.
3. Again select a RT, but this time right-click on a MIDI track (while the TR is still selected), and choose "Generate MIDI Track" and select one of the track types. This time you do not get a warning, and the MIDI data is generated on top of the RT track. The RT track is converted to a MIDI track.
This may or may not be by design, but there are issues even if this is supposed to happen:
1. When you right-click on something, it should be selected first, which doesn't happen in this case (this is standard UI behavior).
2. You should be able to Undo this change, but you can't. This leads me to believe that this is not the intended behavior.
3. There doesn't seem to be any way to convert the track back to a RT.
4. Why isn't the same warning there telling you that you can't do the operation since the track contains audio data, like it does when the selected and right-clicked tracks are the same?
Most likely this is a bug where RB gets the selected vs the right-clicked tracks mixed up, doesn't present the "You can't do that dialog", and generates the MIDI data on the track anyway. Or else it is intended, but the Undo is broken.
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They call him Flipper, Flipper.............
Sorry I hate to insult the poor dolphin.
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Quote:
Quote:
Are you for real? Maybe you are the noob here. A noob at reading comprehension. Are you just such a big PGMusic fanboy that you believe their products have no bugs?
I guess you don't actually want any help with your problems, then...
I'm sorry, I don't understand this. jazmammel was calling me a noob yet the problem was he clearly can't comprehend the problem. I have been doing computer music for more than 15 years, I wrote a bunch of VST plugins (including ones that detects audio pitch and ones that process MIDI events), so I think I know the difference between MIDI and audio at this point. To call me a noob purely because he can't understand the problem seems pretty rude to me.
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Quote:
They call him Flipper, Flipper.............
Sorry I hate to insult the poor dolphin.
Bo Way
Did you mean "Go Away"? If so, why? I paid a lot of money for RB, and I'll complain about its numerous bugs if I feel like it. I find it strange that people can be so defensive about such a buggy piece of software. Do all of you just pretend like it has no bugs? While my initial post might not have been as diplomatic as it could have been (yet I was not rude at all), the intention was to point these issues out, and hopefully get them resolved so that RB becomes a better product. If that is not acceptable, then I apologize for pointing out that RB might not be perfect. And for being a noob that doesn't know the difference between MIDI and audio.
Last edited by BitFlipper; 04/23/10 02:27 PM.
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Is there any possibility that we can get back to the issues I am pointing out here?
The steps as outlined in post #272906 seem to indicate that there are some issues here. Has anyone tried these steps? Can anyone confirm or deny this behavior?
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Hi Bitflipper, I loaded a BIAB song with bar settings into RB and, just like you said, I get the red boxes around those bars. This surprised me because, as far as I was aware, RB does not import BIAB's bar settings. As I understood it, RB - being an audio workstation - simply reads and computes a whole track: volume adjustments for mutes, etc., are then applied to the locations needed. One way to do this it to use the mixer panel and record the slider movement. Anyway, when I loaded in the BIAB file, the red boxes were located on the correct bars. It might be that when you saved the BIAB file, you didn't use the 2-bar count in. In RB, if you go to "Preferences" and select the "General" tab, you can change the "Default measure offset" to match the BIAB file. This should allow you to match RB with BIAB. I suspect that you might need to reload the file. Have you had a chance to have a look at the Realband tutorial video? If you are interested, it's called "Introduction to RealBand (Streaming WMV) | .zip download" and is located at... http://www.pgmusic.com/realbandvideos.htmRegards, Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
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You still had an audio track (RT) hilighted, so that is the track it got generated on. You said to generate midi track on a highlited track.
This was a good catch, they probably should not allow that (gray out the option) or give a warning. That is not something most of us normally do, as evidenced by the fact it didn't get caught in beta testing.
Maybe they DO want it to be able to do that, and it's just something you have to be careful of.
In the mean time - Don't do that. Change the habit. And send a note to support so they have a clue it needs fixing.
If they can dupe it, it sounds like an easy enough fix. But only if they want to. It may be by design, but just needs a warning added.
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Noel,
Thanks for the reply. Yes I have the count-in in BiaB set to 0. But this indicates that there is a problem with the import because RB should take this into account. Also, when you delete measures in RB, you will see that the bar settings are not moved with the other data. Did you try and generate the RB tracks? In my case at least, even though the bar settings initially appeared at the correct measures, they were still generated at the wrong places. Once I deleted some start measures, they appeared at the wrong locations as well as being generated at completely different places from where they visually appeared.
As for the steps outlined in one of my previous posts, did you try those to see if you can reproduce the issue with irrecoverably losing a RealTrack by inadvertently having a RT selected while right-clicking on a MIDI track and generating it? I find it really hard to believe that this is by design.
Thanks for the tip about the video tutorial, I was able to figure out how to edit the bar settings. You have to press F5, which seems to be the only way to get to it which is why I could not find it in any menu or context menu.
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Thought about PM'ing, but since you asked in public, rather than PM'ing me, I'll answer here.
I thought your reply to jazzmammal was pretty rude. He used the term 'noob' in passing, making an assumption. I read and re-read his post and don't think it was agressive towards you. Your reply to him was pretty agressive. Jazzmammal may have been a little coky in his assumption, but stepped in to help, I don't think he was ridiculing you, and that comes from years of reading his posts.
So yeah, I was talking to you. Not trying to be rude in return, I did continue and try to help afterall.
What I saw was a request for help, and the first guy that tried was pretty much attacked. I've thought about it and don't think it was 'herd instinct' to protect Jazzmammal, we have a pretty peaceful forum for the most part. That type of response stood out to me. Makes the next guy a little hesitant to help <grin>
I think you did find a couple things that can be improved. The 'undo' error would need to be fixed for sure. The warning about overwriting may be nice idea. However, I'll point out again, you did have an audio track hilighted and told the program to write a midi track on that track. It just did what you said there. I hope you stick around and volunteer for beta next year. These type of things are best discussed during testing so they don't get out.
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Those bar markers also need to be either accounted for or ignored.
That was another good catch.
Please do submit these things to support, or at least reference them to this thread. They are attentive to things that need fixing like this.
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Quote:
You still had an audio track (RT) hilighted, so that is the track it got generated on. You said to generate midi track on a highlited track.
This was a good catch, they probably should not allow that (gray out the option) or give a warning. That is not something most of us normally do, as evidenced by the fact it didn't get caught in beta testing.
Maybe they DO want it to be able to do that, and it's just something you have to be careful of.
In the mean time - Don't do that. Change the habit. And send a note to support so they have a clue it needs fixing.
If they can dupe it, it sounds like an easy enough fix. But only if they want to. It may be by design, but just needs a warning added.
I think this is unintentional behavior because from what I can tell once you have audio data on an audio track you are prevented from converting it to a MIDI track in all other cases. When you first have an audio track selected, in this particular use case it somehow bypasses the usual checks and the track is converted to a MIDI track when it should not have been.
BTW, you can do a right-click in any application. The standard behavior is to first select the item you right-clicked on. If RB wants to deviate from this behavior, it should at least warn the user that they are doing something that is not possible given the selected track. In addition, the reason why I didn't notice the selection didn't change was because the context menu is so big it covered up the tracks. If you right-click close to the left of the track, the tracks are completely covered up by the context menu.
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That's a very valid point. Please submit it to support, so they can look at it. Let me know if you aren't going to, I'll do it.
It's worth having them look at. I like every improvement that can be made.
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Quote:
Thought about PM'ing, but since you asked in public, rather than PM'ing me, I'll answer here.
I thought your reply to jazzmammal was pretty rude. He used the term 'noob' in passing, making an assumption. I read and re-read his post and don't think it was agressive towards you. Your reply to him was pretty agressive. Jazzmammal may have been a little coky in his assumption, but stepped in to help, I don't think he was ridiculing you, and that comes from years of reading his posts.
So yeah, I was talking to you. Not trying to be rude in return, I did continue and try to help afterall.
What I saw was a request for help, and the first guy that tried was pretty much attacked. I've thought about it and don't think it was 'herd instinct' to protect Jazzmammal, we have a pretty peaceful forum for the most part. That type of response stood out to me. Makes the next guy a little hesitant to help <grin>
I think you did find a couple things that can be improved. The 'undo' error would need to be fixed for sure. The warning about overwriting may be nice idea. However, I'll point out again, you did have an audio track hilighted and told the program to write a midi track on that track. It just did what you said there. I hope you stick around and volunteer for beta next year. These type of things are best discussed during testing so they don't get out.
I don't want to keep harping on this, but jazzmammel surely wasn't offering any help, instead he stated all my observations were as intended ("All these points are correct normal functions and are in the manual"). Which it clearly isn't. He also said he understands that these concepts are difficult to understand for a noob like me. So to be honest with you, he wasn't trying to help at all, and anyone that finds legitimate bugs and then gets a response like that will be offended.
I understand your point about the RT being initially selected, and agree that the work-around is simple enough (make sure to first left-click the track you want to modify). My point here is that there are two bugs really: One, the track I right-clicked on should have been selected (as per standard UI conventions), and 2, the usual checks to determine whether the operation is valid was somehow bypassed in this case. These two bugs together results in an irrecoverably lost RT. Not a super big deal because I can recreate a similar RT on an unused track, but then again I could also lose various edits and settings I made to the RT.
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I do see your point, and you forgot about the markers not behaving correctly. That's another issue entirely.
The last couple sentences of your post in reply to jazzmammal were what I was referring to in my post immediately following. Sorry if that isn't how you see it (honestly). I thought that was the changing point. Just me though, although I can see it set a couple others off too. Like I said - it's pretty peaceful and helpful here most of the time. I visit other forums that aren't quite as 'polite'. It seemed out of place here, which is why I noticed.
Thanks for hanging in there and pointing this out..
and really; jump in for beta testing when it comes around.
Last edited by rharv; 04/23/10 04:28 PM.
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Yes I can see my response was a bit strong. I'm usually also quite calm but those kinds of arrogant responses to valid issues ticks me off. Anyway, enough of that...
I did go ahead and file the issue with the RT being overwritten. I will post another for the markers not moving when deleting measures.
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