Hmmm, I've had some experience with the Berkley School's songwriting system. It seems, in many ways - particularly the new rules of rhyme (family etc etc), to be structured to accommodate rap lyrics and the failure to find a decent rhyme. Then there's the syllable count - only counting the stressed syllables? Really? I've also found that quite a few Berkley grads become fixated on the rules and can't cope with things not following trad western chord progressions etc. If people can take things from the courses that help them be more creative then all is good for them. For those who gets caught in the web of rules it's bad teaching.
Last edited by rayc; 08/04/2212:35 PM.
Cheers rayc "What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
Well put Ray. I took the Berklee courses through CourseRA. I enjoyed learning about all the rules but yeah, you need to be able to use them as a guide and not 'the only way'.
I don't believe in "rules". I think sslechta & racyc pretty much nailed it - if you can get some tools to equip yourself with, great. But my opinion on Pattison (I'm not a fan and think he's horribly overrated) is based primarily on this truth:
"I've also found that quite a few Berkley grads become fixated on the rules and can't cope with things like not following trad western chord progressions etc."
I taught a commercial songwriting class at a college locally (until they cancelled the program) and what I always told the students was "the only rule is that there's no rules". Clearly that's an exaggeration, but the point was to get them to think outside of the box and not get locked into bullsh*t like syllable counts, perfect rhymes, etc.
FWIW, all the truly exceptional writers I've ever known and worked with never read a single book or took a single course on songwriting, they just did what came naturally. The organic approach doesn't just work for food. ;-)
FWIW, all the truly exceptional writers I've ever known and worked with never read a single book or took a single course on songwriting, they just did what came naturally. The organic approach doesn't just work for food. ;-)
I agree to a certain extent, Roger, but even natural talent needs guidance. I'm not saying I'm naturally talented (or even talented at all), but I know that I'd still be writing 4 to 5 minute songs with changing tense, too many characters, poor use of hook, etc. if I hadn't received sound advice from my NSAI song evaluations.
Completely agree, but it's germane to the discussion to point out that there's a difference between guidance and being fed a bunch of "rules". I certainly had a number of mentors when I was getting started, and there's a lot of trial & error until you find a work flow that works for you.
Going back to rayc's initial comment, the problem arises when writers start believing they have to write songs they way they are taught or instructed to, and are convinced that they can't deviate from what they've been taught.
my opinion on Pattison (I'm not a fan and think he's horribly overrated)
I agree 100%. He is also boring. I took one of his classes and the only way to finish was to speed up the video and try to survive to the end! The other thing I've noticed is Berklee offers "free" classes that are actually excerpts from paid classes and not useful as stand-alone courses.
Going back to rayc's initial comment, the problem arises when writers start believing they have to write songs they way they are taught or instructed to, and are convinced that they can't deviate from what they've been taught.
[quote=Roger Brown] ...changing tense, too many characters...
To be fair those things are matters of grammar & written language that can, & should, be learnt quite early in one's school life. Plural agreement, tense, choice of "voice", consistency ...another bunch of rules that can be very helpful writing an email or a song BUT if not the initial building blocks are often the polish applied after the creative burst that can help the communication. I'm quite a stickler for those thing in my own writing but many of the songs & lyrics I love disregard them.
Last edited by rayc; 08/04/2205:05 PM.
Cheers rayc "What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
... the problem arises when writers start believing they have to write songs they way they are taught or instructed to, and are convinced that they can't deviate from what they've been taught.
Yes, and in things like the Berk courses the rules have to be internalized followed to pass the course as no creative deviation is permitted...all whip & no creative carrot.
Cheers rayc "What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
What I want to know is if T and I are in a plane crash and he dies, can I keep all the gold?
Billy
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig? “Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
Roger Miller was accosted by an aspiring songwriter once who begged him for some advice. Roger said "Here's my advice. Always keep your small change and your pills in different pockets. I just swallowed 75 cents."
....... "the only rule is that there's no rules". Clearly that's an exaggeration, but the point was to get them to think outside of the box and not get locked into bullsh*t like syllable counts, perfect rhymes, etc.
FWIW, all the truly exceptional writers I've ever known and worked with never read a single book or took a single course on songwriting, they just did what came naturally......
Bingo.... write from the heart and if you have something good to say, it will shine through. AS for following the rules.... they are guidelines to be appreciated but adhering to them as though they are the holy grail probably isn't a good idea.
Listen to the radio in any decade and you will hear people who are breaking every rule in the book and their songs seem to rise to the top regardless because they connect with the soul of the listeners.
They say you should have rhymes in certain places.... something I wrote last year was posted here and I really didn't think about it much....Then one individual pointed out there wasn't a single rhyme in the song.... I looked at what I had written, I read the lyrics again.... they were right... but nonetheless, it worked and resonated well.
Point being..... write. And don't be overly obsessed about following the (so called) rules. Write from your heart and soul and see what happens.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 08/05/2207:34 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
For a plus side of what Pattison offers, a methodological approach helps a writer stay productive.
Since staying productive is a key aspect to writing better songs, I find it helpful to have some technical guidance.
I can understand if you are a Berkley student in a class, the instructor will most likely want you to stick to the practices in the curriculum while your in the course.
However, for songwriting in general, it's not an either/or that you can only be inspired, or only use a methodological approach.
Either way, it's all about the songs, so whatever gets you there, or wherever you're wanting to go, take or leave what you see fits
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The other thing I've noticed is Berklee offers "free" classes that are actually excerpts from paid classes and not useful as stand-alone courses.
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