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IT IS NOT THE TOOL, IT IS THE PERSON USING THE TOOL.
I yelled that because it is the truth. Your point is true but it is not the complete truth! Some tools are better than others and it is perfectly valid to have that discussion. Every piece of technology is subjected to reviews and comparisons with other implementations so potential users can can make a more informed decision. The whole argument that a poor tool can be used to create quality results does not change the FACT that there are much better tools available. And the issue is a LOT deeper than just deep diving into a poor tool to learn to work around it's warts. I believe it is FAR better to simply find a better tool! I agree and stated in the somewhat evasive (now that I have gone back and looked) statement in the first paragraph "Yes a screwdriver can be a hammer for small nails, or an awe, or a small pry bar but they are not the optimum tool for those jobs. However they may get the job done."
When you are at the checkout line and they ask if you found everything say "Why, are you hiding stuff?"
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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It’s funny how many people seem to be either afraid or not interested in learning a new skill. When I first started work as a trainee after leaving school I went to a training school where about 50% of our time in the first year was about how to correctly use tools. Use the correct tool or best tool for the job.
With producing music there are many alternatives into how to get a job done. I recall a little session I had with a fellow musician who said you can’t use BIAB to do that and I showed him how. He said I have had BIAB for years and I didn’t know that. I said go to the PG site there is a plethora of great videos there to demonstrate aspects of BIAB. Go find Joanne Coopers stuff or Henry Clarke you’ll learn heaps. “Oh I don’t have the time for that”. My answer then I can’t help you.
I find learning is what it is about. I spend time every day looking and reading stuff on these forums. I learn by doing so. I reckon I still spend 50% of my time learning new skills or finding ways to make better use of what I know.
I said earlier in these posts it is about using the best or most appropriate tool for the job. In music production this can be very subjective however without enough learning how can one make the best choices.
Learn!!! It is fun.
My thoughts
Tony Tony, with all do respect I don't think it is about being afraid or not interested is learning new things. I know I have learned a lot about BiaB and RB by being active on these forums. Its about using the tools that are right for you. Why should I learn any other DAW when I am happy and challenged with the one I have now? Why should I learn or use what I know about in BiaB when I can do it easier and quicker in my DAW? I could be spending that time composing and/or playing. I am also a constant learner. I have and/or in the process of learning about a number of programs and sound sources that can help me make better music, I hope. None of them are about BiaB or DAWs as I am happy with those as I use them now. That is not to say that I am static with them. I look at all of the options available to me each year and learn the ones that I find will help me. Things like the micro-chords (I hate that name!), globally setting the loop function to one, trying the VST, etc. Peace and YMMV
When you are at the checkout line and they ask if you found everything say "Why, are you hiding stuff?"
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Tony has the right answer. A DAW and BiaB are two different tools. Add a notation app to that and it’s three tools. It all depends on the project. For me, it may start in Sibelius (by a client) and end up in Notion. Mine might start in Encore and/or Finale and get synced to Digital Performer via Rewire—even though the code is depreciated, RW still works on the MacOS. Others begin and end in DP — or GarageBand/Logic/Audacity/Reaper/Bitwig/Zoom and end in DP. Very few of my own projects never begin in BIAB but many of my clients’ do. Normally, if I begin in BIAB, I finish in it but not always. Back t the hammer and screw metaphor: Nearly all AV presentations have video elements mixed with slides or are straight video. I do these in Premiere Elements or FinalCut ProX depending on complexity — easy peasy. However, yesterday, I started a 2-hour project that is slides and music only. I fired up PE and was 10 minutes into it when I realized that, though I can do it as a video, PowerPoint was the far superior app—I’d not used PP in 20 years but it was easy to get back in the saddle. Again, it all depends on the project. I do this for a living.
BIAB 2024 Audiophile, 24Core/60CoreGPU Core M2 MacStudioUltra/8TB/192GB Sequoia, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP/color]
[color=#FF0040]Digital Performer11, LogicPro
Finale27/Dorico/Encore/SmartScorePro64/Notion6 /Overture5
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Ol' MAC had a couple sayings that still stick with me;
1. Run what you brung
2. If it sounds good it IS good
My input is that if you have something that works for you, use it, but don't be afraid of learning other new tools (or remembering old ones as Mike Halloran pointed out)
The important part is number 2 (yeah I said number 2) .. if the end result sounds good, it doesn't matter what you used or how many extra features it had.
Listening to a song I couldn't care less whether it was made in DAW A or DAW B
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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I think it’s interesting just how much we all have in common here. 1. Everyone here is speaking their own truth as to what tools they use 2. Everyone here either built the tool they use or was introduced to it by someone or something 3. Everyone has a story on how they arrived at BiaB 4. Everyone has a story on how they arrived at music 5. Everyone is somewhere on the music proficiency spectrum(s) 6. Everyone is on a dynamic and limited time continuum Because of #6, the tool(s) you use today may not be the tool(s) you use tomorrow. Or tomorrow you may have more tools in your box than you do today. I think everyone can agree that (in general) a hammer is better at driving and removing nails than a screwdriver. And (in general) a screwdriver is better at inserting and removing screws than a hammer. If you know how to use both. But when you consider complex software tools that are revised periodically and must operate on your particular hardware platform and must fit within your workflow and must be at least somewhat comfortable and efficient to use, well then, the simple analogy of the hammer and screwdriver begins to break down. Another factor at play in considering a new or different software tool is “herd mentality”. Unless you are a maverick, most likely you will avoid adopting a tool that no one else is using for fear of having no help when you need it. Instead, you will choose to use the tool that many are already promoting and using. And then collaborating with others may also influence your choice of tools. I would say that most if not all of us want to become more proficient in music while maintaining or increasing the level of satisfaction and fun we get from music. So to springboard from Teunis’ thought we should continue to learn. This requires researching, considering, pondering, testing, and adopting new tools as we are able. In a nutshell . . . grow, adapt and be happy 
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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Thumper.
let me say i really liked your last post above in this thread.
particularly 'So to springboard from Teunis’ thought we should continue to learn.' etc etc.
btw i'm a maverick…lol.
happiness
om
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The question "Why use a DAW when there is BIAB" literally depends on how BIAB is used in a workflow. I'm not speaking of the release year or program pak, but rather if one stays in BIAB as long as possible or if they rough out a song and render tracks and do the majority of arrangement and production in a DAW. The rendered output from each method yields dramatically different results.
Remaining in BIAB can take full advantage of the BIAB algorithm, multiple tools, techniques and features that are used to develop the structure, song form, instrument choice and arrangement, editing and effects.
Likewise, by quickly generating and rendering audio, the structure and song form are developed but most, if not all, of the more advanced programable or automatic tasks that are possible from using BIAB's tools, features and processes and allowing the BIAB algorithm to initiate commands and functions are lost to the user.
It's possible that in a single bar on a single track for the BIAB algorithm and settings to:
. Change from one RT instrument to another
. Alternately, have two or more instruments play simultaneously
. Change styles
. Change the sub-style
. Modulate the key
. Adjust the tempo
. Generate specific ending audio chosen for instrument 1
. Generate specific intro audio chosen for instrument 2
. Fade out the first instrument
. Fade in the second instrument
. Crossfade the two instruments
. Change the panning setting
. Change the volume level
. Repeatedly regenerate these actions and settings with the Generate and play icon.
In BIAB this is automatically initiated with a click of a button.
In a DAW, each step is done manually because most likely the two instruments are on separate tracks. In addition, RealTrack instrument changes or regenerations require going back to BIAB and requires additional rendered tracks for the different styles.
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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As longtime Mac users Logic Pro X was to us the obvious choice based on the following: - $199 and free upgrades for life. - A huge sound library and they are always free. New ones added all the time. - A world of built in plug-ins and they are always free - Groove track ... name a track the groove and lock all others to it. GREAT way to easily double drum components and more. - Great pitch editor although I do not pitch change vocals. - The automation lanes for FX variables, volume and panning are extremely easy to use. - Dragging and dropping into Logic from BiaB is simple and quick. - Virtual instruments galore -- amps/speakers/mics, pedals, keys and on and on. Free for life. - Drummers that can be set up in around a zillion ways - Graphically edit MIDI events (all kinds of midi stuff but that's not my cup of tea ... but I bet it's good). - Customize the control bar and toolbar with additional buttons and controls. - Customize key commands -Customize your workflow using screensets. - Large free loops library - User friendly interface and it's hard to imagine what you could want that it doesn't do. - Turn on a "simplified" mode that reduces the complexity of operations. - And a host of functions I've never used as they are way above my mixing pay grade. Oh, did I mentioned the Mac version of BiaB doesn't have RealBand? But we hear amazing productions here done with it. Bud
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos are here on our website.
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4T(The Total Talent Team) JnB.
(kudos to you re your songs btw…and Janices great vocs.)
there are serious questions ive been itching to ask seasoned mac users like your good selves for sometime in case i found a deal on a refurb older intel mini or a newer m1 mini for cheap as the m2 comes out from my reading.
1.. yes logic is a very nice product. so my question is …
why , in that case,... do mac users get D Performer ? or Studio One for Mac ?
or others like Bitwig, Audacity or reaper etc etc. ??
cos i'm confused on this point.
frankly i feel a genius like G Martin would do hit songs on anything ..
eg G Band also looks good to moi. who can complain for free..!
2.. second question…
do you feel that the iphone marketing strategy will be followed with the mac mini. ie using the new 'm' silicon 2023 a m2 mini, 2024 a m3 mini, …
2025 a m4 mini….etc etc ? if so this opens up for 'cheapies' like me to 'stay behind the tech curve' and get the previous generation. ie refurbs//off lease used.
frankly i'm very curious due my background to see if the 'm' silicon plataeus at some point in processing power.
but it wouldnt matter much to me as an m2 would prolly keep me happy for a looong time.
thanks and looking forward to your answers cos the 'm' silicon is getting me v excited.
happiness and best to you both.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 09/01/22 11:57 AM.
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I'm sure Logic Pro is a fine DAW with many great tools built-in. Every DAW has its strengths and ease of use is one strength I've read people comment about Logic Pro time and time again.
But Band-in-a-Box also has many built-in tools. How easy is Band-in-a-Box to use? It automatically performs audio clip crossfades. The selected style automatically selects track instruments, track volume level, track panning, track equalization and track reverb. These are all simple tasks that must be performed many times in most DAWs but are automatic in Band-in-a-Box.
Jim Fogle - 2025 BiaB (Build 1128) RB (Build 5) - Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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I'm sure Logic Pro is a fine DAW with many great tools built-in. Every DAW has its strengths and ease of use is one strength I've read people comment about Logic Pro time and time again.
But Band-in-a-Box also has many built-in tools ... With RB is not being available to Mac folks we have no empirical basis for comparison other than what we read from folks who use it. We do hear some fine RB productions posted here. Bud
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos are here on our website.
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Ah, luckily this hasn't degenerated into the Real Band Users Versus the World of so many threads.
For me the journey has been Mono reel recorder, stereo cassette, 12 track recording studio, 4 track demo recording studio, 24 track recording studio, four track cassette, eight track cassette, Cakewalk Pro Audio 9.3 and settled with Reaper...each has been fun and relatively intuitive to use or record to. It tried using BIAB to record etc. but it was a clumsy mess in my hands.
BIAB is great for what I want from it...drums and occasional other instruments that I can use to build a song upon in my DAW of choice, (which isn't BIAB or RB).
Fun to experiment in BIAB, lots of options too but it is, FOR ME, too clunky to use as a DAW.
BIAB with multi track drums, Song Form/structure as well as the DAW Plug In, (and the development of that says reems about the perspective of the company), reach peak coolness for my needs...
...any/everything else peripheral/occasional useful/diverting.
I find the best sonic quality comes from exporting untreated .wav files, centred and mono where appropriate and then adding them to my DAW. I don't drag them in via the DAW plugin because I get at least one glitch with each project.
Tools for the user, work flow for the worker. Each to their own in this privileged, hobby enabled western world.
Last edited by rayc; 09/01/22 10:30 PM.
Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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Re…REALBAND (RB).
well…lol…certainly, over the years, ive done enough for the cause , in spreading the rb (and powertracks) message…including to big rigs where i would take my 'ruff demos'….who often 'bugged out' after seeing what could be done for a v small investment in pg products.
what i mean is for someone starting out the under 100 buckys pg plus pak is one hey of a deal for biab AND rb…. and the cost of powertraks and upgrades is a superb deal too….by comparison to what big rigs cost, and their huge investments.
(e.g. much as i like 24 track 2 inch the tape alone cost me a few hundred bucks.)
i'm just trying to fair to pg products. also no usb dongles.
time for a new generation to spread the message. lol.
to be clear i like not only rb but also biab and reaps.
i use the strengths of each.
however i'm not silly…of course if tomorrow a superior new multitrack product came out that combined all the best of bb/rb and reaps of course i would look at it.
what ive pondered many times is , why do certain pg users like joanne, rharv and myself (and others ) like rb soooo much. is there a commonality tween us ? and yet other people cant seem to get into rb. me..i'm a 'digger' so maybe there is a clue there.
what has really surprised me over the years is no competing products have come out for the pc and mac platforms that tightly integrate auto accompaniment/multitrack/session instruments etc etc.
if i could get above on a reasonable priced apple mac mini with a 'm' cpu running at 5ghz i would have to look at it.(eg a "super duper logic x version'.)
what i'm interested in also seeing is how apple engineers
deal with the 'laws of physics' as the performance of 'm'
cpu's speed is ramped ever higher. also 'heat' and power consumption. etc
whatever you use…just enjoy yourselves doing it like i do.
happiness to all.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 09/02/22 03:20 AM.
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I'm finding this thread very interesting and love the fact that no wars have been started.
As you know I use Studio One Pro as my DAW and very rarely use RB. HOWEVER I have always said that if you don't have a favorite DAW then start with RB.
A few messages back Jim listed a number of things that BiaB will do automatically. Many of those things are what I want to control thus I leave BiaB as soon as I can and go to my DAW.
Jim's comments got me thinking what are the primary sound sources people are using and how long do they stay in BiaB? Are those staying in BiaB primary RT users? Are those using primary MIDI leaving BiaB quicker? Or doesn't what you use as sound sources matter? I think that would be interesting data.
I will start. I am primary MIDI. I leave BiaB as a scratch pad, i.e get my chords and style and immediately move to my DAW. There I have total control.
PS - If you think this is off topic just let me know and I will delete this message.
When you are at the checkout line and they ask if you found everything say "Why, are you hiding stuff?"
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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99% real tracks.
Get out of Biab asap.
No biab plug in my daw.
Logic Pro.
biab2024(Mac) Latest Build
Mac OS Sequoia 15.0.1
Apple M2 pro 32GB Ram
Logic Pro 11
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Jim's comments got me thinking what are the primary sound sources people are using and how long do they stay in BiaB? Are those staying in BiaB primary RT users? Are those using primary MIDI leaving BiaB quicker? Or doesn't what you use as sound sources matter? I think that would be interesting data. This is not meant to be a nit, but there is another sound source that I (and I think others) frequently use. It's recording audio into a DAW (Studio One for me) from my keyboard or BeatBuddy drum machine. This is not MIDI and does not involve BiaB.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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99% real tracks.
Get out of Biab asap.
No biab plug in my daw.
Logic Pro. And just to show how much variety there is in BIAB users, mine is: 75% RealTracks (the real creativity is in the MIDI, though). Stay in BIAB as long as possible. No BIAB Plug-in needed but use the older DAW Mode to drag tracks into a DAW. Studio One 5.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Jim's comments got me thinking what are the primary sound sources people are using and how long do they stay in BiaB? Are those staying in BiaB primary RT users? Are those using primary MIDI leaving BiaB quicker? Or doesn't what you use as sound sources matter? I think that would be interesting data. This is not meant to be a nit, but there is another sound source that I (and I think others) frequently use. It's recording audio into a DAW (Studio One for me) from my keyboard or BeatBuddy drum machine. This is not MIDI and does not involve BiaB. That is not a nit. I also use Studio One for things like that, i.e. keyboard, vocals, guitar, and bass recording. My point, that maybe I didn't explain properly, is how soon, if ever, do you leave BiaB. I could never do in BiaB that I do in my DAW as quickly and easily as I can do it in my DAW. I'm sure it is the same with you. YMMV
When you are at the checkout line and they ask if you found everything say "Why, are you hiding stuff?"
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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When it comes to how soon I come out of BIAB it really depends on what I feel at the time usually pretty quickly. I may bounce back into BIAB to change an instrument or maybe go back and covert a track to MIDI so that I can edit it or use a different instrument. I might even go into RB particularly to get a few MultiRiff options on a bar or two. (Yes I know there are other ways to do it but I tend to stick to what works for me). I set everything to flat, dry and centre then export it and pull it into Reaper. I might add more instruments or write parts outside BIAB in my DAW.
In Reaper it is very easy to move stuff, (for example move a note by a number of ticks or maybe cut an paste entire bars) maybe do Spectral edits to get shy of noises I don’t want etc. As I mix I often notice things I want changed.
Once I have it I will change levels as a song progresses using envelopes. I might change play rates in a song or more likely at the end. Yep I could do that in BIAB but it is much easier and more accurate to perform rate changes using an envelope that I can see and adjust whilst listening to the track. (No calculations or guesses to percentages). Using envelopes it is easy to start change in any part of a bar.
Once I have the song roughly ho I want it I might put Neutron on every track (one click in Reaper). I then use a chain on my output (one click). This output chain has the Visual Mixer, Ozone, Tonal balance Control and Insight. In a nutshell it is simple and quite efficient.
I get back to saying the best tools for particular functions (yes what are the best tools is subjective but it is what I have).
I use mainly RealTracks because I consider them to be truly excellent in the main. I also have a vast collection of sampled instruments and many synths (which I very rarely use).
Tony
Last edited by Teunis; 09/02/22 12:33 PM.
HP i7-4770 16GB 1TB SSD, Win 10 Home,
Focusrite 2i2 3rd Gen, Launchkey 61, Maton CW80, Telecaster, Ovation Elite TX, Yamaha Pacifica 612
BB 2022(912) RB 2022(2), CakeWalk, Reaper 6, Audacity, Melodyne 5 Editor, Izotope Music Production Suite 4.1
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BIAB while I compose (though I sometimes use Scaler 2 in Logic for the composing stage as well or even Garage Band for iPad (especially for drum programming))
Logic Pro X for the rest, as I feel much more in control in the DAW with signal chain and processing (controlling Waves plugins through BIAB sucks!)
Then Ozone in stand alone mode when I master
Bottom line - you find the workflow that suits your needs best, and since we probably have different approaches on workflows, then one size doesn't fit all.
MacMini M1 - BIAB2021 - Logic Pro X - iZotope Music Production Suite - Scaler 2 - far too many Waves plugins and Line 6 Guitars and boards + a fantastic Yamaha THR10ll mini Amp - Avid MBOX Studio
Peters' Garage is available on all major streaming services
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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Holiday Weekend Hours
Our Customer Service hours this weekend are as follows:
Friday, April 18: 8:00 - 4:00
Saturday, April 19: closed
Sunday, April 20: closed
Monday, April 21: Regular hours
Thank you!
Band-in-a-Box 2025 French Version is Here!
Bonjour à tous,
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 pour Windows est disponible en Français.
Le téléchargement se fait à partir du site PG Music
Pour ceux qui auraient déjà acheté la version 2025 de Band-in-a-Box (et qui donc ont une version anglaise), il est possible de "franciser" cette version avec les patchs suivants:
BIAB 2025 - francisation
RealBand 2025 - francisation
Voilà, enjoy!
Band-in-a-Box 2025 German Version is Here!
Update Your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 to Build 1128 for Windows Today!
Already using Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Windows®? Download Build 1128 now from our Support Page to enjoy the latest enhancements and improvements from our team.
Stay up to date—get the latest update now!
Update to RealBand® 2025 Build 5 Windows Today!
Already using RealBand® 2025 for Windows®? Download Build 5 now from our Support Page to ensure you have the latest enhancements and improvements from our team.
Get the latest update today!
PowerTracks Pro Audio 2025 for Windows is Here!
PowerTracks Pro Audio 2025 is here! This new version introduces many features, including VST3 support, the ability to load or import a .FLAC file, a reset option for track height in the Tracks window, a taller Timeline on the Notation window toolbar, new freeze buttons in the Tracks window, three toolbar modes (two rows, single row, and none), the improved Select Patch dialog with text-based search and numeric patch display, a new button in the DirectX/VST window to copy an effects group, and more!
First-time packages start at only $49. Already a PowerTracks Pro Audio user? Upgrade for as little as $29!
www.pgmusic.com/powertracks.htm
Video: Summary of the New Band-in-a-Box® App for iOS®
Join Tobin as he takes you on a tour of the new Band-in-a-Box® app for iOS®! Designed for musicians, singer-songwriters, and educators, this powerful tool lets you create, play, and transfer songs effortlessly on your iPhone® or iPad®—anytime, anywhere.
Band-in-a-Box® for iOS® :Summary video.
Check out the forum post for more information.
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