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What do you know about "Pushes" in BIAB? #738748 11/15/22 02:05 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Mar 2018 Posts: 7,230 Rustyspoon# OP Veteran
OP Rustyspoon# Veteran Joined: Mar 2018 Posts: 7,230	Hi Folks. This question is for those who use / used "Pushes" in RT/RD arrangement whe in BIAB. I was working on composition and progression called for the "push". When I typed it in, results were far less from desired. I couldn't understand what was the issue, until I pulled ACW view. The "timing" looks correct, but the waveform seems to be squashed. And no matter how many times I tried re-generating, it looks (and listens) squashed. What supposed to be a "natural" anticipation, became a distraction. So, I've tested few other styles (with different sets of RTs/RDs). Some "pushes" where acceptable, but I have noticed that on about half of the time, there was still this squishiness / flattening of waveform. What I have tried besides re-generations, pretty much everything on this (great!) list: https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=694482 To understand better what I am talking about, attaching 2 images. I don't use pushes very often, but it is in theory, great feature. Can anyone suggest what I could have missed to make them work right? Thank you. Attached Files (Click to download or enlarge) (Only available when you are logged in) a.jpg (162.54 KB, 205 downloads) b.jpg (149.8 KB, 204 downloads) Last edited by Rustyspoon#; 11/15/22 02:07 PM.

Re: What do you know about "Pushes" in BIAB? Rustyspoon# #738760 11/15/22 02:33 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 21,077 Melbourne, Australia AudioTrack Veteran
AudioTrack Veteran Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 21,077 Melbourne, Australia	Thanks for the detail, which is quite helpful. I agree with your findings. I wonder if the Pushes in RealTracks are 'computer generated' rather than having been performed by the original recording artist? If so, this might be why they don't sound natural. BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.

Re: What do you know about "Pushes" in BIAB? Rustyspoon# #738770 11/15/22 03:48 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Aug 2011 Posts: 11,021 Winston Salem, NC USA Jim Fogle Veteran
Jim Fogle Veteran Joined: Aug 2011 Posts: 11,021 Winston Salem, NC USA	Looking at the image it appears the push volume level and audio volume level are different. There are two settings in the RealTracks window you may want to try. Ctrl+E opens settings and RealTracks button opens the RealTracks window. Adjust PUSH velocity adjusts the volume level of pushes. Automatically fill gaps between riffs MAY be squishing the shot Attached Files (Click to download or enlarge) (Only available when you are logged in) Clipboard01.jpg (150.84 KB, 185 downloads) RealTracks window with push settings highlighted Jim Fogle - 2026 BiaB (Build 1224) RB (Build 8) - Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk Sonar - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home

Re: What do you know about "Pushes" in BIAB? Rustyspoon# #738773 11/15/22 04:10 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Mar 2018 Posts: 7,230 Rustyspoon# OP Veteran
OP Rustyspoon# Veteran Joined: Mar 2018 Posts: 7,230	Jim, you are good! "Automatically fill gaps" didn't do a thing for this issue. but Adjusting push velocity to 4db solved it! I deliberately didn't want to raise volume in audio editor manually, as this was a persistent issue. I wanted to find a solution, not a workaround. I guess the drop in velocity played a trick on my ears. While I accept this as partial solution and THANK YOU for sharing your knowledge, my question before I mark this as "resolved" is this: Shouldn't a Push calculate proper volume level automatically?

Re: What do you know about "Pushes" in BIAB? Rustyspoon# #738776 11/15/22 04:25 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,110 M musocity Veteran
musocity Veteran M Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,110	You need non destructive editing to allow adjustment in position, level and playback speed. They just use the Holds as you can see in the gif below the track is the same sections as in Biab BUT you can adjust it how you like. With Drums you can select the push you want and not take what you are given.

Re: What do you know about "Pushes" in BIAB? Rustyspoon# #738780 11/15/22 04:48 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Aug 2011 Posts: 11,021 Winston Salem, NC USA Jim Fogle Veteran
Jim Fogle Veteran Joined: Aug 2011 Posts: 11,021 Winston Salem, NC USA	RustySpoon# Quote: Shouldn't a Push calculate proper volume level automatically? I would not think so as that is what the manual setting is for. Each Shot and Hold folder is used by multiple RealTracks recorded over a span of years. Content of the audio clip can drastically change the apparent volume level during playback. Everybody hears differently so the best option in this instance is to let the user have control over the apparent volume level of Shots and Holds. My guess it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible to have a calculation for proper volume level that would please everyone. Jim Fogle - 2026 BiaB (Build 1224) RB (Build 8) - Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk Sonar - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home

Re: What do you know about "Pushes" in BIAB? musocity #738781 11/15/22 04:57 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,110 M musocity Veteran
musocity Veteran M Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,110	Being able to adjust the playback rate you can create a fast or slow strum like if you are using the Held option that just plays the Holds. You just get so much more control than with a consolidated wav. Attached Files (Click to download or enlarge) (Only available when you are logged in) BB22-Push-Playback-Rate.png (52.6 KB, 167 downloads)

Re: What do you know about "Pushes" in BIAB? Rustyspoon# #738784 11/15/22 06:03 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Mar 2018 Posts: 7,230 Rustyspoon# OP Veteran
OP Rustyspoon# Veteran Joined: Mar 2018 Posts: 7,230	Jim, "I would not think so as that is what the manual setting is for." Well, I do not adjust volumes for shots, rests and holds (at least in BIAB) and I use them often. Because more or less they are within "comfort" range for rough audition. "Pushes", it seems drop significantly in volume in 1/2 of the cases and sound very confusing. I will leave this unresolved for couple of days to see if it attracts are couple of more viewpoints. --- Musocity, I do remember the concept of non-destructive editing very well. Do I support it? Yes. I believe you presented your case well. But it is up to the owner to consider it or not. I have no clue how difficult it is to implement this within existing BIAB code (probably is).

Re: What do you know about "Pushes" in BIAB? Rustyspoon# #738786 11/15/22 07:27 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 27,531 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY Matt Finley Veteran
Matt Finley Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 27,531 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY	I want to try this on a computer, but for the moment I thought I would mention that I reduce the levels for pushes, shots, and holds considerably, and always have. I find the default values jarring, but I can only speak to the jazz and Latin genres I use most frequently. I am surprised by this waveform because I would have expected louder, not softer. I’ll test my system tomorrow. BIAB 2026 Win Audiophile. Software: Fender Studio One 8, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus Quantom HD8 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.

Re: What do you know about "Pushes" in BIAB?

Rustyspoon# #738787 11/15/22 07:32 PM

Band-in-a-Box for Windows

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Posts: 3,110

musocity

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musocity

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Joined: Jun 2009

Posts: 3,110

It is already in the Biab code, as Reaper just plays the Biab data section direct.
Implementing NDE code, maybe way down the track or not at all ? the BB Plugin/Standalone is way easier.

You have the RT Hold db adjust deep down in the soloist dialog (it should adjust the Pushes as well ?).
You could Freeze the tracks and save the SGU then close it, then adjust the Hold level,
then open the SGU and generate to see where it is.
But that is no easy task like is being done in Reaper non destructively.

This would be like the current track data that is stored in a frozen SGU, you have "RiffdbOffset"
so Biab should be able to apply an offset to the current track RT data then re-write it back to RAM giving you the level adjust, without having to implement NDE.

Code:

Riff #	Summary	RiffHasData	SourceWAVFileName	SourceWAVFileTempo	SourceBarNumber	SourceBeatNumber	SourceTimeSig	SourceStartTimePPQ1200	*SourceBar	*SourceTick(120)	SourceTickOffsetPPQ1200	SourceEndTimePPQ1200	*Tick Duration120(calc)	*Beats Duration (calc)	SourceEndRiffStretchAmountPPQ1200	SourceEndRiffTransitionAmountPPQ1200	DestinationStartTimePPQ1200	*Chord	*Bar Destination 	*Beat Destination 	*Tick Destination120 	TranspositionSemitonesRequired	ThisRiffIsaPush1200	ThisRiffNumber	RiffNoneHoldShot	RiffHoldsLibraryNumber	ThisIsaPush	ThisisDrums	RiffdbOffset	RiffSoloistNumber	RiffThisRiffStartShouldBeMergedWithEndOfPreviousOne	RiffIsUnknownMonoStereo	RiffIndexFromMultipleRT	RiffMultipleRealTracksNumber	AnyLoopActive	AnyLoopRestartLoopWhenWavEnds	AnyLoopBaseTempo	AnyLoopNumberOfBeats	AnyLoopTransposeAmount	AnyLoopStretchTempo	AnyLoopTranspose	AnyLoopOriginalKeyMod	ChordLoopActive	ForceUsePlusMinusRealtracks	RiffPanning	RiffInstructionFutureBytes
0	Riff 0:4:117 to 3:1:3, dur=967, beats=8, ticks=+7,leadin120=-3	1	D:\bb\RealTracks\Bass, Electric, PopPowerA-B Ev 120\bs2151.WAV	120	103	1	4	499171	102	477	0	508845	967	8.06	0	0	9571	D	0	4	117	0	0	2129	0	0	0	0	0	1523	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,	
1	Riff 2:4:65 to 3:1:119, dur=175, beats=1, ticks=+55,leadin120=395	1	D:\bb\RealTracks\Library\Holds\Holds_152\SH1522.WAV	120	1	1	4	13554	1	395	0	15304	175	1.46	0	0	18650	^D	2	4	65	0	1	121	1	152	1	0	-2	1523	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,	
2	Riff 3:2:1 to 7:1:1, dur=1801, beats=15, ticks=+1,leadin120=121	1	D:\bb\RealTracks\Bass, Electric, PopPowerA-B Ev 120\bs2159.WAV	120	3	1	4	20416	3	121	0	38432	1802	15.01	0	0	20416		3	2	2	0	0	18713	0	0	0	0	0	1523	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,	
3	Riff 7:1:0 to 7:4:118, dur=479, beats=3, ticks=+119,leadin120=0	1	D:\bb\RealTracks\Bass, Electric, PopPowerA-B Ev 120\bs2159.WAV	120	42	1	4	206409	42	0	0	211200	479	3.99	0	0	38409	Dsus	7	1	1	0	0	18905	0	0	0	0	0	1523	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,	
4	Riff 7:4:115 to 8:4:115, dur=481, beats=4, ticks=+1,leadin120=-5	1	D:\bb\RealTracks\Bass, Electric, PopPowerA-B Ev 120\bs2157.WAV	120	42	1	4	206352	41	475	0	211168	482	4.01	0	0	43152	Asus	7	4	115	0	0	15893	0	0	0	0	0	1523	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,	
5	Riff 9:1:2 to 9:2:119, dur=238, beats=1, ticks=+118,leadin120=242	1	D:\bb\RealTracks\Bass, Electric, PopPowerA-B Ev 120\bs2165.WAV	120	133	3	4	645622	133	242	0	648008	239	1.99	0	0	48022	G A	9	1	2	0	0	30783	0	0	0	0	0	1523	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,	
6	Riff 9:3:0 to 10:1:3, dur=244, beats=2, ticks=+4,leadin120=0	1	D:\bb\RealTracks\Bass, Electric, PopPowerA-B Ev 120\bs2165.WAV	120	140	1	4	676804	140	0	0	679248	244	2.04	0	0	50404	A	9	3	0	0	0	30844	0	0	0	0	0	1523	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,	
7	Riff 9:4:117 to 10:2:118, dur=242, beats=2, ticks=+2,leadin120=-3	1	D:\bb\RealTracks\Bass, Electric, PopPowerA-B Ev 120\BS2170-1.WAV	120	11	1	4	57577	10	477	0	60000	242	2.02	0	0	52777	Bm G	9	4	118	0	0	40392	0	0	0	0	0	1523	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,

Attached Files (Click to download or enlarge) (Only available when you are logged in)

BB22-Holds-Volume.png (141.85 KB, 153 downloads)

Re: What do you know about "Pushes" in BIAB? Rustyspoon# #738820 11/16/22 03:01 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Mar 2018 Posts: 7,230 Rustyspoon# OP Veteran
OP Rustyspoon# Veteran Joined: Mar 2018 Posts: 7,230	Matt, "I would have expected louder, not softer." That was my expectation too.

Re: What do you know about "Pushes" in BIAB? Rustyspoon# #738919 11/16/22 08:40 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,110 M musocity Veteran
musocity Veteran M Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,110	It's like when I watch youtube videos on the smart tv, you are watching a video with low sound so you turn the sound up and then the ad is through the roof. It should go by the db of the track to the db level adjust of the Hold/Push. Maybe PG could do this before youtube get around to it

Re: What do you know about "Pushes" in BIAB? Rustyspoon# #738994 11/16/22 12:47 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Mar 2018 Posts: 7,230 Rustyspoon# OP Veteran
OP Rustyspoon# Veteran Joined: Mar 2018 Posts: 7,230	Musocity, Yes, I was thinking same. It should go by average db of the track... And then if you want, you adjust it to your taste. I can tolerate shots, rests without imidiate adjustments just fine, but pushes are strange the way they are.

Re: What do you know about "Pushes" in BIAB? Rustyspoon# #739084 11/16/22 06:26 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Apr 2016 Posts: 7,250 Cooran Queensland Australia rayc Veteran
rayc Veteran Joined: Apr 2016 Posts: 7,250 Cooran Queensland Australia	The requirement for manual adjustment should be sign posted...as in a prompt screen asking if one wants to adjust volume. To leave it unsaid means the vast majority of people will either leave it as BIAB does it or not use the push feature as it doesn't meet requirements. Good spotting one & all...yet again WORKAROUND is the BIAB way for now. Cheers rayc "What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe

Re: What do you know about "Pushes" in BIAB? Rustyspoon# #739341 11/17/22 04:20 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Aug 2011 Posts: 11,021 Winston Salem, NC USA Jim Fogle Veteran
Jim Fogle Veteran Joined: Aug 2011 Posts: 11,021 Winston Salem, NC USA	RustySpoon#, Quote: Well, I do not adjust volumes for shots, rests and holds (at least in BIAB) and I use them often. Because more or less they are within "comfort" range for rough audition. "Pushes", it seems drop significantly in volume in 1/2 of the cases and sound very confusing. I agree with you 100 percent. I've seldom had to adjust the volume level of a Shot or Hold. When I do find a Shot or Hold where the volume level does not match the volume level of the rest of my song I'll generally freeze the tracks and email PG Music Support (support@pgmusic.com) with the frozen SGU file and a description of the issue. For example, bar 19 strings track Hold volume level is too high. More often than not the volume level is adjusted in a future update. Jim Fogle - 2026 BiaB (Build 1224) RB (Build 8) - Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk Sonar - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home

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