This is a reason why I keep posting info and ideas:
I open a VSTi like Superior Drummer 3, EZDrummer 3 and it all works so smoothly with real time signatures and real tempo maps. Biab has the most vast incredible content BUT you need to be able to access it like the Toontracks VSTi's INSTANTLY. So I keep posting regardless if there is interest or not, it may just go over the top of those reading the posts, it may annoy some that don't like change. I liken it to one who travels back in time and tells those there of the future and they think he is crazy. I won't be here forever so while I'm here I post the ideas and suggestions I see. Who knows maybe way down the track they might get used when things evolve a bit more and understanding grows. I'm not here to run PG into the ground but try to lift it up where it needs to be, as professional as it's professional content. I don't get anything out of it, I don't do it for "ME".
I agree. If I am on a forum posting negatively about something, it's done in the hope of change.
My problem with change is it's so rarely done for the better. If we all moan about the GUI in BIAB that'll probably be "addressed" with a fashionable flat, dark, colourless, borderless and very limited customisable interface with no separation between elements, as is the current trend. In my opinion there is nothing good about this.
The argument is about eyestrain but nobody accepts the fact it causes mental strain and drives you crazy trying to separate things visually. I guess it depends on your workflow, but for me, when I'm using software I am generally very busy - switching between screens, changing settings and values etc etc. The colourless lack of separation makes this a nightmare.
For me, the one thing that would make BIAB a thousand times better is not to bring it into the future but simply bring it into the early nineties would be good enough for me. New usable features? Yes maybe, but not at the cost of usability. BIAB is already very versatile but it's such a total mess that using it just brings you down and makes you want to give up.
Example, I spent all day yesterday trying to do a very basic task - it ended in me playing around, reverse engineering and experimenting all day just trying to make some sense of what is going on, in the hope that it will educate better for the next time I want to do something similar. The end result is if you finally figure it out, you'll have no chance of ever remembering it again. There is no logic, no common sense, no consistency.
The look of the GUI, in my opinion is OK, looks dated but it works. Customisable menu bars and keyboard shortcuts alone would improve things massively. But above all, I just want it to make sense. I want to be able to figure out the signal flow. I want all pop ups and options to be correlated. It's like everything they do is the complete opposite of the norm and you are just left guessing. Everything is just too random and inconsistent. The options that are obvious take way too many unnecessary clicks. Something that should be a simple click away is nested in submenus that you always have to look for, they're so buried that you can't just memorise things easily.
Pop ups that should stay open, close with each click. Just silly things like this and the list is huge. Organisation. The styles, realtracks and drums - just another mess. The filter doesn't filter, it sorts things into just a different kind of mess. Ez drummer for example as you mentioned. Organised into styles, fills, grooves etc. Easy to find what you are looking for and choose what you want. This isn't modern, it's been the norm for 20+ years in just about every software I've ever know, seen or used. Just common sense.
For me - necessary changes to the GUI is nothing to do with the Graphic elements, just the user interface - it's in the name! Make the interface usable. If we all moan about it then the response will probably be the usual flat, colourless ... etc. with no improvement to usability.
I know this is like a huge rant, and of course, it is - but like you I do so in hope of change. If we stay quiet then things won't happen. BIAB is incredible and I use it almost daily. If there was any alternative then I would be gone, would have happened long ago. But there isn't so the more chance there is that they improve the workflow the more chance I'll stay loyal. We aren't that far away from being able to do a lot of this stuff with simplicity using DAWs and VSTs. My guess is within the next five years I won't be needing to use BIAB as often as I do because I'll just opt for the quicker, easier and more editable version of doing everything in the DAW. They currently still have the time and opportunity to stay ahead of the game but their time is running out.
Again, just to clarify, this isn't a rant for rant's sake - it's just a desperate call for change - put the features on hold, don't change the interface to borderless and just make things easy to figure out, with consistency.
<< "Example, I spent all day yesterday trying to do a very basic task - it ended in me playing around, reverse engineering and experimenting all day just trying to make some sense of what is going on, in the hope that it will educate better for the next time I want to do something similar. The end result is if you finally figure it out, you'll have no chance of ever remembering it again. There is no logic, no common sense, no consistency." >>
Could you share your example of the basic task that took "all day"?
Could you share your example of the basic task that took "all day"?
Yes and no. Now I've fixed it, the problems I had aren't so easy to remember and replicate, but I'll try to give the gist of things.
Simple task: Load a Hi-q patch on a utility track. In this instance it was Rock drum kit in sforzando. Create a beat in the piano roll (already a fiddly task) - decide I don't like the kit so changed it to playable realdrum "funklondon".
All good, happy with the sound. Close program, come back later, it's reverted to Rock kit. Weird, I'll change it again, maybe I didn't save? Nope, tried again - it won't save. Maybe this is normal behaviour for BIAB but it's certainly not "expected" behaviour from someone using software every day of their lives.
No problem, I'll see if I can figure out how to force the patch to save. Off to forum, quick look through the manual. No easy or obvious answer so I'm left experimenting and trying to figure things out.
Try again from the start. I'm now experimenting and testing in a temporary project. Create utility etc, select hi-q patch, choose funklondon ... up comes a pop up. "Aria session" or some such can't load, version is out of date.
Back to Google, back to the forum - what's Aria session loader? Turns out something to do with Plogue Art.
Me thinking "Surely it can't be out of date", I've only just updated to 2023, why would they show a playable realtrack that I can't use. Maybe I've done something wrong with the install? Back to the installer and reinstall BIAB update.
Nope, same problem. Sod it, I'll deal with that later and first see if I can find out how to make this patch stick.
More messing around, more experimenting, more forum searches. I end up in track settings (F7) trying to make some sense of how things work.
So far, all I can figure out is that only the first patch selected will get saved with the song. Now, this isn't actually true, it's just all I am able to determine at this point through experimentation, loading patches, saving, re-opening, etc.
At this point I'm clueless - it will let me load funklondon, let me play funklondon, it displays funklondon in the track mixer etc etc, it just won't save. Eventually I figure out that if it doesn't show in the top list of the track settings window then it won't save. Try the same in Cubase, load sforzando, choose instrument no problem, everything is saved as expected, nothing weird, all saves no problem.
In short, the only way to save a patch in BIAB is to load it from within BIAB itself. Completely unusual, not in the slightest expected behaviour and nothing to make this obvious.
All of these oddities wouldn't be so bad if we had some clue with what was going on and how BIAB does things. Nothing is intuitive. The little + sign in the track settings window in the midi patch section has little or nothing to do with midi patches as we'd normally expect so it takes a while to figure these things out. Nothing is consistent.
Ultimately, the session loader needed updating, it now works. No mention of this in the manual, very little on the forum and not updated with the program update.
It's just hard to get your head around things with such a convoluted piece of software where nothing works the same as pretty much all other software out there.
These kind of things happen often when I use BIAB. Maybe I just try to dig too deep into the details and understand how the thing works and what it's doing. After 25 odd years, I'm none the wiser.
I agree. I have been begging for real time signatures for a long time.
If you stay in the PGM world or you play your instrument/voice to PGM time signatures you are OK. BUT if you try to communicate outside of the PGM world you are DOA with anything other than 2/4, 3/4, or 4/4.
IMHO I think they are doing wonders with some very old coding however it is time for a complete rewrite.
YMMV
I haven't lost all of my marbles but there is a small hole in the bag someplace!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
I agree, EZ Drummer 3 provides a beautiful example of a very well thought and executed GUI, which not only does not hinder the user's workflow, but also enhances the user's creativity.
Despite having thousands of grooves in its database, it is always very easy to find exactly the groove you are looking for, thanks to the great categorization of the content, very powerful and well-defined filters, the ability to easily combine parts from different grooves, and, last but not least, thaks to game-changing features, such as Tap2find, or the new "Band mate", a feature that listens to the music and comes up with a beat.
Very good ideas that could also work really, really well in BIAB.
I know this is like a huge rant, and of course, it is - but like you I do so in hope of change. If we stay quiet then things won't happen. BIAB is incredible and I use it almost daily. If there was any alternative then I would be gone, would have happened long ago. But there isn't so the more chance there is that they improve the workflow the more chance I'll stay loyal. We aren't that far away from being able to do a lot of this stuff with simplicity using DAWs and VSTs. My guess is within the next five years I won't be needing to use BIAB as often as I do because I'll just opt for the quicker, easier and more editable version of doing everything in the DAW. They currently still have the time and opportunity to stay ahead of the game but their time is running out.
I started with BIAB in 2012 and immediately recognized how behind the curve it was compared to other modern software. The changes since then have only been patchwork that in some ways make it even harder to use as new "features" (that sometimes are not finished) get bolted onto the program and in the way of workflow. I agree time is running out!
Originally Posted By: MarioD
IMHO I think they are doing wonders with some very old coding however it is time for a complete rewrite.
I agree 100%! It is amazing what I can get out of BIAB but it does need a complete rewrite. The two problems I see with that are 1) convincing PGM this is necessary and 2) I doubt they have a team that could do this.
Originally Posted By: Cerio
I agree, EZ Drummer 3 provides a beautiful example of a very well thought and executed GUI, which not only does not hinder the user's workflow, but also enhances the user's creativity.
Agreed! EZ Drummer 3 should be installed on every PGM programmer's computer and it should be studied as a great example of awesome software design!
I appreciate forum power-users who contribute their knowledge and share long-winded, convoluted work-arounds to the various warts we encounter with BIAB. I just wish they (and PGM) understood that these work-arounds should not be necessary in the first place! Using a piece of software in this manner sucks all of the fun and creativity out of the work.
I started with BIAB in 2012 and immediately recognized how behind the curve it was compared to other modern software. The changes since then have only been patchwork that in some ways make it even harder to use as new "features" (that sometimes are not finished) get bolted onto the program and in the way of workflow. I agree time is running out!
I don't remember when I got started with BIAB, probably late 90s, maybe early 2000s. It was clunky even back then, but was quite versatile. There was another one out at the time called Jammer - far far easier to use and intuitive but just didn't have quite the versatility of BIAB, so I went with BIAB.
I've no regrets, I still love the software but if I want to do anything more than type in some chords and load a style, then I just end up frustrated, nearly every time. Things I expect it to do or want it to do are so clumsy or hard to figure out that I usually give up in boredom or frustration of getting nowhere. Then one day you read in the forum about something and think "ah, brilliant, you can do that like this". It shouldn't be this difficult to figure things out.
I agree a complete software re-write would be the way to go but in the meantime there is so much that can be done, probably quite easily, just to tidy things up and make life easier.
As an analogy, IMO, if BIAB was a car, the handbrake would be on the passenger side, the accelerator on the left, brakes on the right, the headlights could be switched on by going outside and pressing each light three times, and each door would have its own separate key ... etc etc. Yes, we could argue that the car is still usable but we just couldn't be bothered going out in the dark or carrying passengers. As for changing the oil? We'd probably never figure out how!
..I appreciate forum power-users who contribute their knowledge and share long-winded, convoluted work-arounds to the various warts we encounter with BIAB. I just wish they (and PGM) understood that these work-arounds should not be necessary in the first place! ...
What makes you think that those experienced users here who do that are not working behind the scenes, as well as openly in the forums, to recommend changes to the program?
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
I appreciate forum power-users who contribute their knowledge and share long-winded, convoluted work-arounds to the various warts we encounter with BIAB. I just wish they (and PGM) understood that these work-arounds should not be necessary in the first place!
Believe me, we get frustrated too. And there is plenty of interaction with the developers, but improvements can only occur with their practical involvement and cooperation.
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
..I appreciate forum power-users who contribute their knowledge and share long-winded, convoluted work-arounds to the various warts we encounter with BIAB. I just wish they (and PGM) understood that these work-arounds should not be necessary in the first place! ...
What makes you think that those experienced users here who do that are not working behind the scenes, as well as openly in the forums, to recommend changes to the program?
I am glad to hear experienced users are working on this. My frustration with this specific issue is when someone reports an obvious buggy weirdness or makes a reasonable wishlist request and someone responds as if it is not a problem at all if they will just learn the long-winded work-around they have created/discovered! And to be fair, I don't recall you ever doing that, Matt!
I appreciate forum power-users who contribute their knowledge and share long-winded, convoluted work-arounds to the various warts we encounter with BIAB. I just wish they (and PGM) understood that these work-arounds should not be necessary in the first place!
Believe me, we get frustrated too. And there is plenty of interaction with the developers, but improvements can only occur with their practical involvement and cooperation.
AudioTrack, your posts are always helpful! I was more referring to those who get defensive about perceived BIAB criticism.
AudioTrack, your posts are always helpful! I was more referring to those who get defensive about perceived BIAB criticism.
JJJ, All good. I follow exactly what you mean
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
In my view, all what is said in posts above is perfectly summarized in a single sentence by Lee:
"They currently still have the time and opportunity to stay ahead of the game but their time is running out."
It would be very sad if they don't take advantage of this "opportunity".
I believe, Ergonomics/workflow + consistency (both functions and visual) should be priority #1 for the BIAB(software*) at this point in time. Functions are there, just make them usable and user friendly. And of course fix known problems ASAP.
*Excluding RT/RD/MIDI and other creative content, which is great.
In my view, all what is said in posts above is perfectly summarized in a single sentence by Lee:
"They currently still have the time and opportunity to stay ahead of the game but their time is running out."
It would be very sad if they don't take advantage of this "opportunity".
I believe, Ergonomics/workflow + consistency (both functions and visual) should be priority #1 for the BIAB(software*) at this point in time. Functions are there, just make them usable and user friendly. And of course fix known problems ASAP.
*Excluding RT/RD/MIDI and other creative content, which is great.
They are already way behind in the MIDI department. Companies like Toontrack have already passed them. Some of the MIDI piano, drums,etc loops are excellent. PGM is ahead in the RT and RD department because that is their main focus, and rightly so as it is their cash cow.
I haven't lost all of my marbles but there is a small hole in the bag someplace!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Mario, I believe PGM has enough of MIDI content, just most of it is not very usable because of workflow limitation. Specifically, I am talking about individual instrument parts of huge library of PG MIDI styles. These are nearly impossible to extract into individual instrument tracks that can be mixed and matched like RT, RD and Super Midi tracks.
On top of that, many 3rd party MIDI pattern / loop libraries cost close to nothing. It's BIAB workflow that has issues/limitations with properly integrating those into composition.
In theory, you should simply be able to audition midi pattern or midi loop in a picker, place it on a track of your choice and it should follow tempo and chord changes without doing crazy acrobatics. If we are on the same page, it is a workflow item.
Yes, I agree that the workflow is a major part of the problem, thus my "PGM is ahead in the RT and RD department" statement. That was part of what I was talking about.
However there are third party MIDI loops/tracks that are far superior to many of PGM MIDI tracks.
Some of PGM MIDI tracks are fantastic and I think your selecting individual MIDI tracks greatly enhance BiaB.
I haven't lost all of my marbles but there is a small hole in the bag someplace!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Maybe it all will end up like a type Kodak Company situation. A market leading company and brand for decades where management failed to see or believe in the changes of the industry at that time even though a majority of the competition was.
BIAB 2026, Studio Pro 8, Song Master Pro, Win11 Home. i7-9700K CPU, 32GB, ESI MAYA44eX, ZOOM UAC-2, Guitar Pro 8, Transcribe, (EZKeys2, EZD3, SD3, EZBass, EZMix3) Amateur: fiddle, guitar, vocal, beginner on bass.
A minor offshoot of this thread is about PG Music and MIDI. I just wanted to mention that I really enjoy the jazz piano MIDI Supertracks. I wish PG Music would release more of these. I know it didn't get widespread support when this was last discussed, but there are a few folks like Mario who use MIDI extensively and would really appreciate resuming making these.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
Maybe it all will end up like a type Kodak Company situation. A market leading company and brand for decades where management failed to see or believe in the changes of the industry at that time even though a majority of the competition was.
Yep. I know this quite well as I worked at Kodak research for 39 years. I went digital early on with a 2.1 MP camera. Most employees thought digital was just a phase. Well it has been a long phase hasn't it.
I haven't lost all of my marbles but there is a small hole in the bag someplace!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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