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Originally Posted By: Planobilly
There is a fundamental difference between BIAB and AI. AI can change its outputs based on new inputs, while an algorithm (BIAB) always generates the same output for a given input.

So, no, BIAB has no AI involved that I am aware of.


I'm not so sure about that. Pick a lead voice in the Melodist and have it create an entire song. Then without changing a thing create another song. You will get a completely different song, different chords, different style, different lead, etc, but with the same lead instrument. That is different output for the same input as nothing was changed in the input criteria. Note that is a good way to learn new chord progressions.

I'm not trying to start a war, I just trying to understand.


Originally Posted By: Planobilly
If you think there is no skill or creativity involved in generating an AI song, make one in Synthesizer V using BIAB for the backing track and post it.

At some point in the future, perhaps we will be able to describe what we want to hear, and a hit a button and a song will result. That is not today.

Actually, I think much better AI software will require even more skill and creativity to use and get good results.

Billy


I agree there is much skill and creativity involved in AI. AI, BiaB, DAWs, VSTs, RTs, etc are just tools. Pick the right tool for the right job for your workflow.

I don't care what it is but if it gets more people interested in making and understanding music then I'm all for it.


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Originally Posted By: MarioD
[quote=Planobilly]There is a fundamental difference between BIAB and AI. AI can change its outputs based on new inputs, while an algorithm (BIAB) always generates the same output for a given input.

So, no, BIAB has no AI involved that I am aware of.


I'm not so sure about that. Pick a lead voice in the Melodist and have it create an entire song. Then without changing a thing create another song. You will get a completely different song, different chords, different style, different lead, etc, but with the same lead instrument. That is different output for the same input as nothing was changed in the input criteria. Note that is a good way to learn new chord progressions.

I'm not trying to start a war, I just trying to understand.


[quote=Planobilly]
Mario, I could be wrong here but from what I know and have seen in BiaB, it does not contain AI. You can easily get different outputs when given the same inputs from simple look-up (sequential) tables where execution 1 uses value 1, execution 2 uses value 2, etc. Or you can achieve different outputs from stochastic methods (sampling from a probability distribution such as a bell curve).


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I very much doubt that BiaB currently has any of its own integrated AI. The program has sequences of predefined patterns which it can cleverly join in multiple different random ways to provide a neat result.

Each new generation uses a combination of the same or different patterns in perhaps a different sequence to produce a different result.

Artificial Intelligence on the other hand is the simulation of human intelligence processes by machines.

I really don't believe that BiaB simulates human intelligence. I think it provides innovative pattern matching techniques.


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Perhaps this is a short clip of where BIAB already is with the use of AI. This is a short experimental clip generated out of BIAB using both BIAB as a backing track and a BIAB vocal converted to a midi to provide the vocal melody for the AI.

This has not been mixed and has only been modified through pitch correction. There is a large amount of control that can be used in both programs.

https://soundcloud.com/planobillydfw-89880386/test-take-five

What generally happens as technologies mature there is better/easier integration.

To answer the original question, "where is BIAB going", there is only one likely answer. They will go where they must go to stay profitable.

To further confuse the issue of AI-generated vocals, not all vocals from Synthesizer V are AI-generated.

Billy


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Artificial Intelligence (AI) is an umbrella term for computer software that mimics human cognition in order to perform complex tasks and learn from them. Machine learning (ML) is a subfield of AI that uses algorithms trained on data to produce adaptable models that can perform a variety of complex tasks.

Clear as mud.

Just remember if we don't want the machines to take over, don't build them in the first place.


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I suppose if I wanted to write a song, AI could do it for me.

I've tried writing, and for me, the lyrics always sound trite and corny, a lame repetition of what others have written. AI could probably do it that well.

But I'm not really a songwriter. I am a musician, I play music, I interpret music, I arrange music, I improvise over chord changes, I get into that zone where there is no me, no thought, just the music flowing through me, and it's the most fun I can have with my clothes on.

Why would I want AI to do that?

So if someone writes a song with AI that I like, I'll be happy to reinterpret it, and play an improvised solo section.

I really don't know if BiaB technically qualifies as AI or not. I do know that I can plug some chords into BiaB, choose a style, pick up my sax, and have a backing band around when I want to try something out.

Plus, I know that I can load the chord changes to a song, and choose many different styles to hear what it sounds like as a Reggae, Blues, Swing, Funk, or any other style song.

I don't think this is something that ChatGPT is going to do for me anytime soon.

I truly feel that almost every musician would benefit from having these three tools: A sequencer/DAW, Band-in-a-Box, and a full-blown notation program. Perhaps someday a fourth essential tool might be added to that list, and it might be something like ChatGPT.

But like the electric guitar, never replaced acoustic guitars, Sousaphones never replaced tubas, and synthesizers never replaced pianos, I think AI will simply add something new to our choices.

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Originally Posted By: Bass Thumper

Mario, I could be wrong here but from what I know and have seen in BiaB, it does not contain AI. You can easily get different outputs when given the same inputs from simple look-up (sequential) tables where execution 1 uses value 1, execution 2 uses value 2, etc. Or you can achieve different outputs from stochastic methods (sampling from a probability distribution such as a bell curve).


Thanx Steve for that info. As long as I can make music with BiaB I don't care what is under the hood.


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Firstly, I'm an old guy but I've enjoyed tech things since I was a kid when taking apart radios smile and building Heatkits. I find AI fascinating and not, as many, threatening.

However Biab is so multifaceted that in general it IMHO must be considered within the context of the user. And this is from a guys who loves BiaB but uses a tiny percentage of its capabilities. AI providing a backing track and vocals per request is one thing. Another is sitting at a DAW comping up multiple generations of RT's, MST's and RD's to support your song. And pitching shift RT's notes to segue as you like into vocals, tags, etc. And then mixing it all to your likes.

You and your hmmmmm ... isn't that based on your experiences, your likes and dislikes, your definitions of feeling and soul? So perhaps you could end up with an AI product some or perhaps many folks like. But would you?

OK I do understand that with the development of ChatGPT, etc., you might be able to talk with AI for hours or days until is understood you and what you want. Oh, wait a minute, I think I read this morning that Bing with incorporated ChatGPT is bombing out after a longish session and even making insulting comments, etc. smile Yeah we are on the cusp and so much more is to come. Of course that view often seems to assume no limits or long stalls … all of which have occurred with many other technologies.


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A few years ago fellow forum member Icelander posted links to audio files where the audio files seemed to prove his thought that RealTrack backing tracks were influenced by the song melody.

I consider the algorithms Band-in-a-Box uses as a form of artificial intelligence because the software is making musical decisions based on melodic song structure.


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Originally Posted By: Jim Fogle

I consider the algorithms Band-in-a-Box uses as a form of artificial intelligence because the software is making musical decisions based on melodic song structure.

Surely that's using some well designed and clever pattern matching algorithms, isn't it?

If it was true AI, then BiaB would continue to reason and learn all on its own - it would continually become more and more intelligent.

Separately, it wouldn't need 192,000+ RealTracks files and 14,000+ Drums files, because it would be able to produce that music itself using a much smaller array of audio sounds instead or pre-recorded musical extracts.

Don't get me wrong, what this system does is exceptional. It is brilliant. But unless it 'learns by itself' and as a result becomes more and more smarter, i.e. creates its own intelligence, it's not AI.


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Originally Posted By: AudioTrack

Don't get me wrong, what this system does is exceptional. It is brilliant. But unless it 'learns by itself' and as a result becomes more and more smarter, i.e. creates its own intelligence, it's not AI.

FWIW I agree with AudioTrack. BiaB is brilliant and exceptional as-is. I also realize that continual progress of the program is required to remain relevant and competitive.

However, if/when AI becomes fully embedded in BiaB (and I think at some point it will) that it is implemented in a way that does not diminish or restrict those of us that thrive on human-produced creativity. I for one, do not want a bot making my creative decisions for me.

One approach to accomplish this is a user-selectable switch that enables or disables AI bot assistance.


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I hadn't thought about the learning to improve. What AudioTrack says makes sense to me.


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To differentiate AI vs algorithm based things, think about it this way.

If you buy a software chess game for your computer, and when you start beating it like a drum it learns how well you play and plays better to level the field, that is AI.

When you have software that generates music based on loops assigned to styles (algorithm), that is not AI because it isn't learning to anticipate your expectations and adapting to your tastes to create better music.

If you pick a soloist and generate solos, there may be many options that the software can create, but those options will be finite. When you play a 48 number lottery, there are 12,271,512 of 6 numbers. That's a lot yeah, but it IS finite.

So if you are willing to spend $12,271,512 and spend the time to write out betting tickets for 12,271,512 combinations, you will win the lottery. I just hope that jackpot is at least $12,271,513.

I am not even close to good enough at math to calculate the number of combinations of all the thousands of styles and chord progressions, but it WILL be finite. Maybe hundreds of millions, but finite.

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Originally Posted By: Bass Thumper
This graphic is how I boil down this subject. It's all about how much personal creativity we have pushed into any given song. We and everyone else is sitting somewhere on this spectrum for any song we have or will produce.

So on the extreme left of the spectrum we have "Cave People Joe and Jane" who first figured out that banging a stick onto a tree and singing to it was fun. There is no greater creativity. They invented their instrument and they were influenced by no other cave people because they were the first.

On the extreme right you have "write me a song" spoken into an AI program or you have outright stolen the song; thereby achieving no creativity at all. Any creativity that does exists in this case is from the people who wrote the stolen song and/or the AI technology used.

I would say that most of us are in Zone 2, 3 or 4. I hope I never end up in 5.

And sorry . . . it's too late to bang a stick on a tree and claim credit smile


I think I'm firmly in the GREEN zone.


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#754332 02/18/23 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted By: eddie1261
When you play a 48 number lottery, there are 12,271,512 of 6 numbers.

I'm not confirming your result.
How did you arrive at 12,271,512?

What formula did you use?


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I used Google.

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Can someone please ask ChatGPT this for me and report back:

How do I get someone to listen to my new song 1,000,000 times on Spotify and buy it 1,000,000 times on Amazon or iTunes?

Please give precise instructions and links.

If it gives you a good answer please post that here and then I will look into using it.

Hey thanks y'all. Gotta run!!!

smile

#754360 02/18/23 12:22 PM
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Quote:
So if you are willing to spend $12,271,512 and spend the time to write out betting tickets for 12,271,512 combinations, you will win the lottery.

Or perhaps share the win with one or more others cry cry cry


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Also, if you can fill out one set of numbers per minute, never sleeping, it would take you 23 years to hit every combination.


1 2 3 4 5 6
1 2 3 4 5 7
1 2 3 4 5 8
1 2 3 4 5 9

Etc. 12,271,512 times.

Thumper ask Google how many combinations of 6 numbers there are in 48 numbers.

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Originally Posted By: David Snyder
Can someone please ask ChatGPT this for me and report back:

How do I get someone to listen to my new song 1,000,000 times on Spotify and buy it 1,000,000 times on Amazon or iTunes?

Please give precise instructions and links.

If it gives you a good answer please post that here and then I will look into using it.

Hey thanks y'all. Gotta run!!!

smile


Exactly what this thread needed! smile smile smile

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In this PAK you’ll discover: Energetic folk rock, raucous train beats, fast country boogies, acid jazz grooves, laid-back funky jams, a bevy of breezy jazz waltzes, calm electro funk, indie synth pop, industrial synth metal, and more bro country than could possibly fit in the back of a pickup truck!

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Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 21.

Video: Xtra Styles PAK 21 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!

Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 21 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.

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