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I’ve been working on an EP the past year and have 5 songs I feel are solid and ready to be recorded, and then released under my own artist name (will be my first release).

I’ve only composed it with voice and guitar, production is my weak point, so my plan is to record them as solid demos with just guitar and vocals and show them to a few producers near me.

I’d probably show it to about 4-5 producers, I don’t really know them, just people near me, or ones that have been recommended through acquaintances, etc.

Just wondering how many on here register their songs before showing them to producers or shopping them around to artists / etc.

(I've read it's also much better to copyright songs individually, vs as a group, as it's much more beneficial in case it does every become a legal issue.

I also think I have to copyright them again, once I'll do the official release? Or is that not the case, if the lyrics/melody haven't really changed?)

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Howdy question asker. I am by no means an expert. The safest way to go is to copywrite them first. That being said it isn't always a necessity. I know a guy in Nashville who has his own publishing company that I occasionally run a song by. I don't bother copywriting them first, but he's been a friend of the family for years. There are a lot of crooks out there. It's not a good way to do business, but some do. It's a gamble if you don't copywrite it first. It's not always just the publisher you have to worry about. If they should ever play it to someone else for an opinion it runs a risk of being ripped off by that person as well. My dad had one stolen that way once. If you don't know them well, or have any reservations it's best to copywrite first I think. I wrote a theme song for a TV show years ago that never took off. The show had an in-house band, and I knew the guys. The song was copywritten along with the show, so I never had to worry about it - plus it never made any money. Anyway that's the limit of my experience, so as I said, I'm not an expert - just my two cents. Good luck with your songs,

Brad

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Personally, I don't. No one out there is trying to steal your songs.... heck it's nearly impossible to get folks to listen to them.

If you are going to release them on a commercial project, yes. You should copyright them. Plugging them to publishers, nope. The publisher is not going to steal your song if you're dealing with legit publishers and you should know who you're dealing with in that regard. They will copyright the song in their name if they are interested in representing your song to artists and other commercial projects. You simply have a writers contract with the publisher.

Hope that helps.


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A very odd position and question for a BIAB forum.
Clearly using BIAB would, in all likelihood, take your voice & guitar demos up a level that wouldn't require "production" nous per se.
Establishing copyright at the earliest instance is common sense.


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See:

Music Lawyerin

This hole gets deep real fast.

You may want to see if there is a music lawyer in your town.

They'll explain it all to you for $200 and your eyes will glaze over.

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LegalEagle's video about music law and Taylor Swift's story are interesting.
Lawyers also cost, though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-A_RrOeoWw


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Quote:
… I am by no means an expert. …


I am and run a small consulting concern on Copyright and Music Licensing. I'll spare you my resumé other than I worked on the 1976 revision to Title 17 (effective 1/1/1978) and recently retired from ASCAP where I was attached to the Legal Dept.

Standard disclaimer: I am not an attorney nor do I practice law. Everything I write can (and should) be looked up. If you need an attorney, get one (I can hook you up, BTW. My opinions are my own and I am not responsible for anything you do or don't.

Quote:
The song was copywritten…


The word is COPYRIGHTED. You are protecting your rights concerning copies of your work. "Copywritten" is what happens with advertising and news text (copy).

Although much of the following is also true in the 140+ countries that are signatories to the Berne Convention, some are unique to the USA and I will not point out the differences—you are on your own if not a US resident.

Terms: LOC is the Library of Congress, United States Copyright Office. SCOTUS is the Supreme Court of the United States. Title 17 is the US Copyright Law. Section 8 is Article 1, Section 8 of the United States Constitution requiring Congress to protect Copyrights and Patents. In this context, Work is any intellectual property subject to Copyright protection. Mechanical royalties are paid for copies sold. Performance royalties are for broadcast, streaming etc.

Helicopter view: All Works fall into one of two categories: Published and Unpublished. With one exception, Published and Unpublished Works are afforded different rights—this is important to know and almost no one gets this right online.

Unpublished Works have two sets of rights: You can take action against plagiarism and you have the Right to the First Recording. Although you are protected from the date of creation and you are not required to register them, the problem is proving Authorship and Date of Creation. You can register up to 10 Works (not 20!) with the LOC on a Form PA or SR as Unpublished. There are 3rd party entities that let you do the same for a lower fee. You cannot protect your rights by mailing anything to yourself, aka the Poor Man's Copyright. It must be a 3rd party with no interest in the work and there are many out there—Google is your friend.

The Right to the First Recording is often overlooked. The second you make a work available to the Public, a song is Published (Public is the root of Published) and you lose this right—this includes posting to Facebook, Youtube. Soundcloud etc. unless your chanel is Private. Established songwriters can and do charge for that first recording if they can and, if that first artist never releases, they can charge someone else and so on. Songwriter Demos are not considered First Recording unless a rights holder posts it or includes it on a CD sold at a gig etc. Anyway, once a First Recording is released or otherwise Published, that right is gone.

Published Works must be registered as Published with the LOC or all protections are lost—meaning that you have no right to be paid until that happens. If someone covers your song and doesn't pay your Mechanicals, if not registered as Published, you have no right to take action (sue in Federal Court). Filing a song as Published after release is often done but no mechanicals or damages are due before the Processing Date. A few years ago, SCOTUS finally settled the matter on which date applies, time stamp when received or date processed. I know of one horror story where a songwriter lost an estimated $18M because her publisher did not file the correct Form PA Published till 20 years after it was first recorded (a story for later). Normally, Published Works are registered one at a time but as of March, 2021, it is now possible to register up to 20 Published works released at the same time on one album on a single form. Google Register Certain Groups of Published Works for details and restrictions on the two ways this is allowed.


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Bottom line and answering the OP:

Many in the industry will not accept an unpublished Work (Songwriter demo, script, screenplay etc.) with any kind of Copyright notice on it. It is considered amateurish at best and a possible setup for a lawsuit at worst. Since copyright notices are not required, even if registered, don't make that mistake.

If concerned about being ripped off i. e. someone claiming your Work as his/her own, then register it with someone. The LOC accepts up to 10 on a Form PA or SR with PA box checked (do not check the box for Published). Again, there are 3rd party companies that do this and, if you're a prolific songwriter, you'll save a lot of money.

The Writers Guild has been registering scripts for over 95 years. They don't so songs but, if you want to see how 3rd party protection works, their web site is most informative.

WGA West Registry


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Is "QuestionAsker" a real person asking a real question or is "QuestionAsker" a one time forum visiter, never to post again? Will "QuestionAsker" even visit the forum to read the responses to the question?

Only time can answer these questions.

Not mocking the answers but more wondering about "QuestionAsker". I'm kinda' in RayC's corner on this one and think it's one and done.

All good answers but sort of a weird first question to ask in this forum.

If I'm wrong I will be pleasantly surprised.


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There are a few who change user names now and then so, who knows?

In any case, I answered all the questions raised in the OP but, unless there is follow up, I’m done here.


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Copyright is all about one thing.
It provides an official date of creation and who created it.

That said, the library of Congress is the registration that a court requires to bring a lawsuit.

With the internet and computers, everything posted online has data tagged to it that shows date of creation of that file. In addition to this, there are several companies that are providing a service that dates the files on secured servers. One such is the software company MasterWriter. It's a lyric writing package which includes a registration service.

One of the publishing companies I have dealt with that placed my music in films and TV, and yes, I got performance royalty checks for that from BMI, told me to not worry about copyright. They were handling that. And they did. For that reason, and others, I don't worry about the copyright for my music.

Yep.... I realize that this might ruffle the feathers of some in this business, but you are also free to do this any way that allows you to sleep restfully at night.


You can find my music at:
www.herbhartley.com
Add nothing that adds nothing to the music.
You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.

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Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
Copyright is all about one thing.
It provides an official date of creation and who created it.


You are absolutely wrong. Article 1 Section 8:

Quote:
The Congress shall have Power…

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;




Quote:

That said, the library of Congress is the registration that a court requires to bring a lawsuit.


Half wrong. Published works only.

Quote:
With the internet and computers, everything posted online has data tagged to it that shows date of creation of that file.


So what? The Federal Court System has yet to accept this. Search BMI in Justia.com.

Quote:
In addition to this, there are several companies that are providing a service that dates the files on secured servers. One such is the software company MasterWriter. It's a lyric writing package which includes a registration service.


Barry DeVorzon's service is one of many out there. Unpublished works only.


Quote:
One of the publishing companies I have dealt with that placed my music in films and TV, and yes, I got performance royalty checks for that from BMI, told me to not worry about copyright. They were handling that. And they did. For that reason, and others, I don't worry about the copyright for my music.

With Unpublished works, it's ok not to be worried. There's no requirement to register and, if you get ripped off, that's your concern alone.

That the PROs might pay performance royalties without a Form PA Published is not a secret and how they handle this is their affair (the Consent Decree does not require this). However, they cannot initiate a suit on your behalf if your rights are violated without it—and only if the performance occurs after the registration date on the certificate. Again, not knowing this has cost some writers millions of dollars. While you might get paid—always a good thing—the fact is that you do not have the right to be paid without the correct registration.

Red flag here: Is an experienced songwriter really implying that your publishers don't file the correct Copyright forms on your music? It is the publisher's obligation to do so and your lack of knowledge on this subject (real or pretend) is appalling.

Quote:
Yep.... I realize that this might ruffle the feathers of some in this business, but you are also free to do this any way that allows you to sleep restfully at night.


As long as those reading know that you are giving some bad advice, how can feathers get ruffled?


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Originally Posted By: Mike Halloran

You are absolutely wrong....Half wrong.....So what? ......

Red flag here: Is an experienced songwriter really implying that your publishers don't file the correct Copyright forms on your music? It is the publisher's obligation to do so and your lack of knowledge on this subject (real or pretend) is appalling.

As long as those reading know that you are giving some bad advice, how can feathers get ruffled?



Aren't you the little ray of sunshine today. Take a deep breath.... exhale....relax.... If you read my post again, this time more carefully...you will notice that I never claimed that my publishers failed to file the proper paperwork. In fact I believe I said the exact opposite. Something about the publisher handling it....and they did.

Peace brother


You can find my music at:
www.herbhartley.com
Add nothing that adds nothing to the music.
You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.

The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Originally Posted By: Brad Williams
Howdy question asker. I am by no means an expert. The safest way to go is to copywrite them first. That being said it isn't always a necessity. I know a guy in Nashville who has his own publishing company that I occasionally run a song by. I don't bother copywriting them first, but he's been a friend of the family for years. There are a lot of crooks out there. It's not a good way to do business, but some do. It's a gamble if you don't copywrite it first. It's not always just the publisher you have to worry about. If they should ever play it to someone else for an opinion it runs a risk of being ripped off by that person as well. My dad had one stolen that way once. If you don't know them well, or have any reservations it's best to copywrite first I think. I wrote a theme song for a TV show years ago that never took off. The show had an in-house band, and I knew the guys. The song was copywritten along with the show, so I never had to worry about it - plus it never made any money. Anyway that's the limit of my experience, so as I said, I'm not an expert - just my two cents. Good luck with your songs,

Brad


Thanks Brad for the feedback. Just curious, what was the story with your dads song being stolen? How did it happen, and did he see any reimbursement for it?

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Originally Posted By: Mike Halloran


Unpublished Works have two sets of rights: You can take action against plagiarism and you have the Right to the First Recording. Although you are protected from the date of creation and you are not required to register them, the problem is proving Authorship and Date of Creation. You can register up to 10 Works (not 20!) with the LOC on a Form PA or SR as Unpublished. There are 3rd party entities that let you do the same for a lower fee. You cannot protect your rights by mailing anything to yourself, aka the Poor Man's Copyright. It must be a 3rd party with no interest in the work and there are many out there—Google is your friend.


Thank you Mike, I really appreciate you sharing your expertise on the subject, very informative.

I have a few follow up questions, if that's OK:

1. I've heard a few music industry people (including a lawyer) state that you should copyright each song individually, for various reasons, including:

- Easier to manage the song, for licensing, etc. If it's within a catalog of 10 songs, if you want to license / sell that song, you have to sell / license the whole catalog. (I might be wrong on this, but this is what I understood from that conversation).

- If someone does plagiarize the song, the judge looks at the plagiarized snippet compared to the whole registered body of work. If it's a melody line, and only 1 song is registered, it's can be a large portion of the plagiarized work. However if that melody line is compared to the whole body of 10 songs, it could be considered a small part, and warrant a much smaller compensation for plagiarism, or be thrown out, etc. (Once again this is what I heard, I know I might be wrong).

Is this true, in your experience?

I'd much rather register in groups of 10, to save money, but this is what I have been told (ie register each song copyright individually).

2. I remember reading that with registering an unpublished copyright, one has 3 months from the date of registration to publish the work, otherwise they lose some sort of protection? Is that true?

Quote:


The Right to the First Recording is often overlooked. The second you make a work available to the Public, a song is Published (Public is the root of Published) and you lose this right—this includes posting to Facebook, Youtube. Soundcloud etc. unless your chanel is Private. Established songwriters can and do charge for that first recording if they can and, if that first artist never releases, they can charge someone else and so on. Songwriter Demos are not considered First Recording unless a rights holder posts it or includes it on a CD sold at a gig etc. Anyway, once a First Recording is released or otherwise Published, that right is gone.



Quote:

Many in the industry will not accept an unpublished Work (Songwriter demo, script, screenplay etc.) with any kind of Copyright notice on it. It is considered amateurish at best and a possible setup for a lawsuit at worst. Since copyright notices are not required, even if registered, don't make that mistake.


3. Another thing I'm confused about is this - so if pitching a song to a producer or publisher (with the intent of having another artist using it), it should not be copyrighted in any way, not even as an unpublished work? How does the Right to First Recording tie into that situation?

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QuestionAsker,

Welcome back to the forum. I'm glad to see you've returned. I apologize for thinking you did not have a legitimate interest in the forum.


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Originally Posted By: QuestionAsker
Originally Posted By: Brad Williams
........ My dad had one stolen that way once. If you don't know them well, or have any reservations it's best to copywrite first I think. ......


Thanks Brad for the feedback. Just curious, what was the story with your dads song being stolen? How did it happen, and did he see any reimbursement for it?



I worked with another writer many years ago. I was just getting started at the time. He was the founder of a songwriters group in the town I was in at the time. He claimed that he had written the lyric and melody to a very big #1 song and had submitted it to a publisher/record company and heard nothing back. Then one day he heard it on the radio and watched it go to #1 and make a ton of money. This was well before the internet and computers. Rotary phones were still a thing. I'm not so sure that his story was true, but of course the back story fit the situation well. His wife would kind of roll her eyes when he told this story to someone new.

It's possible because at the time, there was only LOC copyright to prove ownership and date of creation. I still have all of the copyright forms for the songs I was writing back then. Many were collections. I should pull those out and see if there was anything actually worth spending the money on back then.

My story....a coincidence I'm sure...... I have a gospel song that I had written and recorded. One day I was listening to the local gospel radio station and heard a song that was eerily close to the song I had written. I wrote it off as a coincidence because at the time, I wasn't posting on line... internet was at best dial up to bulletin boards and I hadn't sent the song out to anyone. That was a strange one. There was no way anyone else could have heard my song and ripped it off.

Last edited by Guitarhacker; 02/18/23 04:20 AM.

You can find my music at:
www.herbhartley.com
Add nothing that adds nothing to the music.
You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.

The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Originally Posted By: Jim Fogle
QuestionAsker,

Welcome back to the forum. I'm glad to see you've returned. I apologize for thinking you did not have a legitimate interest in the forum.


Greetings Jim, no worries, thank you for having me smile

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Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker


I worked with another writer many years ago. I was just getting started at the time. He was the founder of a songwriters group in the town I was in at the time. He claimed that he had written the lyric and melody to a very big #1 song and had submitted it to a publisher/record company and heard nothing back. Then one day he heard it on the radio and watched it go to #1 and make a ton of money. This was well before the internet and computers. Rotary phones were still a thing. I'm not so sure that his story was true, but of course the back story fit the situation well. His wife would kind of roll her eyes when he told this story to someone new.



That would really suck if it did indeed get stolen, I hope it wasn't the case.

Quote:


My story....a coincidence I'm sure...... I have a gospel song that I had written and recorded. One day I was listening to the local gospel radio station and heard a song that was eerily close to the song I had written. I wrote it off as a coincidence because at the time, I wasn't posting on line... internet was at best dial up to bulletin boards and I hadn't sent the song out to anyone. That was a strange one. There was no way anyone else could have heard my song and ripped it off.


There's a phenomenon that seems to pass in many areas, I hear of inventions being invented often independently in various parts of the world, even before the internet or phones, or when being worked on in secret. Or an idea or philosophy that surfaces at the same time, in various areas. Maybe it could have been something like that. But with a song, to copy a melody like that, does sound odd to me though.

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Just to be pedantic:

In the US, at least, copyright is automatic upon a work being created.

The issue is of proving that one indeed holds ownership. That is where registering your copyright comes in. It is rather difficult to argue with an official government document, the falsification of which potentially carries a charge of perjury.

There are other services that claim to do this but none have yet been tried in court to my knowledge. Neither has the purported "poor man's copyright" of mailing a copy to yourself.


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Check out all the new features in the redesigned Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!

Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac - Special Offers End at 11:59pm PDT on Friday, May 15th, 2026!

Order before 11:59pm PDT on Friday, May 15th and SAVE up to 50% on most Band-in-a-Box® version 2026 for Mac Upgrade packages... and that's not all! With your version 2026 for Mac purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons FREE! Upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks... that's 222 NEW RealTracks available with version Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac!

Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac® today for as little as $49! Check out the Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all available purchase options.

Learn more about the Free Bonus PAK and 49-PAK here.

If you have any questions about which package is the best option for you, just let us know. We're here to help!

202 New RealTracks Released with Band-in-a-Box 2026!

With Band-in-a-Box® 2026, we've released 202 incredible new RealTracks (in sets 468-488) in a variety of genres—featuring your most requested styles!

Jazz, Funk & World (Sets 468-475):
Our new jazz, funk & blues RealTracks include a groovin’ collection of RealTracks and RealDrums! These include more requested “soul jazz” RealTracks featuring artists Neil Swainson (bass), Charles Treadway (organ), Brent Mason (guitar), and Wes Little (drums). There are new “smooth jazz” styles (4), which include a RealTracks first: muted trumpet, as well as slick new smooth jazz brushes options for drums. Blues lovers will be thrilled—there are more “classic acoustic blues” styles, including guitar (5), bass (4), and drums (10) with blues master Colin Linden, featuring understated and tasty background acoustic soloing, plus brushes drums and acoustic bass. There are also new electric blues RealTracks, including electric blues with PG favorite Johnny Hiland (3) and soulful electric slide guitar from Colin Linden (4). If you love funk & gospel, there are great new options this year, including gospel organ (3) from Charles Treadway, as well as new funk, tango, and rock ’n’ roll drums (3) and bass (1). And for big, bold arrangements, we have uptempo soul horns (4) featuring a three-part hip horn section with options for a full mix or stems of each individual horn — plus an accompanying rhythm section (4) of drums, bass, guitar, and electric piano!

Rock & Pop (Sets 476–482):
Our new rock & pop RealTracks bring a powerful mix of requested favorites, fresh genres, and modern chart-inspired styles! We have more of our popular “Producer Layered Acoustic Guitars (15)” featuring Band-in-a-Box favorite Brent Mason. We’ve continued our much-requested disco styles (10), and added new Celtic guitar (5) with a more basic, accessible approach than our previous Drop-D or DADGAD offerings. There are also highly requested yacht rock styles (17), inspired by the smooth, polished soft-rock sound of the late ’70s and early ’80s — laid-back grooves, silky electric pianos, warm textures, elegant harmonic movement, and pristine production aesthetics. Fans of heavier styles will love our new glam metal (13), capturing the flashy, high-energy sound of ’80s arena-ready guitar rock. We also have a set of rootsy modern-folk rock (18), with a warm, organic sound combining contemporary folk textures and driving acoustic strumming. And we’ve added lots of new modern pop styles (16) — the kinds of sounds you’re hearing on the radio today, featuring exciting new drums, synths, and cutting-edge RealTracks arrangements.

Country, & Americana (Sets 483–488):
Our new country & Americana RealTracks deliver a rich collection of acoustic, electric, and roots-inspired styles! We have new country pop (9) with legendary guitarist Brent Mason. There is also a potpourri (14) of bouzouki, guitars, banjo, and more, perfect for adding texture and character to contemporary acoustic arrangements. We’ve added funky country guitar (5) with PG favorite Brent Mason, along with classic pedal steel styles (5) featuring steel great Doug Jernigan. There are more country songwriter styles (8) that provide intimate, rootsy foundations for storytelling and modern Americana writing. Finally, we have “background soloing” acoustic guitar (12) with Brent Mason — simpler, but still very tasty acoustic lines designed to sit beautifully behind vocals or act as a subtle standalone solo part.

Check out all the 202 new RealTracks (in sets 468-488)!

And, if you are looking for more, the 2026 49-PAK (for $49) includes an impressive collection of 20 bonus RealTracks, featuring exciting and inspiring additions to add to your RealTracks library. You'll get new country-rhythm guitar styles from PG Music favorites Johnny Hiland and Brent Mason, along with modern-pop grooves that capture today’s radio-ready sound! There are also new indie-folk styles with guitar, bass, 6-string bass used as a high-chording instrument, acoustic guitar, and banjo. Plus, dedicated "cymbal fills" RealDrums provide an added layer that work very well with low-key folky styles with other percussion.

The 2026 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2026 49-PAK!

2026 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!

With your version 2026 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons for FREE! Or upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!

These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!

This Free Bonus PAK includes:

  • The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK: -For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles. -For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles. -For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
  • MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
  • MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
  • Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
  • Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
  • Playable RealTracks Set 5
  • RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
  • SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
  • iOS Android Band-in-a-Box® App
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
  • 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
  • FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
  • MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
  • MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
  • Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
  • Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
  • RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
  • SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)

Learn more about the Bonus PAK and 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!

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