Yes there have been some interesting notions expressed here.
My main goal as the OP was to throw out some observations.
1.) As I understand it, the Showcase is a place to experiment and throw out ideas and even working tapes as SONGWRITERS. I never expected this to be a place for final productions.
I do not post final productions here, ever. I showcase works in progress as a user of the PG products, for feedback, from other songwriters I respect.
2.) A final production of an in-tune vocal of a complete piece of crap is still a professionally tuned piece of crap.
3.) If I were a customer, I could possibly be more alarmed by the presence of a song called: "Smell My Dirty Sweet Little Japanese Socks: An Orgiastic Opera" than I would be by a lack of autotune. That might lead, in fact, to the great depression.
4.) Whenever someone bellows that they know everything about a professional mix but have nothing to show for it I can also almost guarantee with 100% accuracy that what they will post will be the worst thing you have ever heard and that you will want to stick pencils in your ears so you will never have to hear any sound ever again as long as you live.
4.5) The people who seem to say "this is nowhere near to being a professional mix" are always missing two major points:
A.) That is not why I post here, or many others I assume.
B.) They themselves probably have a greater chance of having Jesus fly down and personally escort them to their right-hand seat in the Kingdom than they have of ever producing a professional sounding song themselves.
5.) A song has a LOT more to it than the proper choice of a VST and an AI vocalist to go with an AI lyric (or a lyric that sounds like one.)
6.) Real songwriters know exactly what #5 means and people who will never write a good song will always have no clue.
7.) I enjoy the opportunity to hear what EVERYONE is doing because raw creativity always sparks something in me, and makes me more creative, whether it is perfect pitch or not.
8.) Anyone can grab a jazz demo and sing a four note perfectly tuned melody to it. But does anyone care? Still, they are welcome, as everyone is. They should just be the most careful of all with Glass House Syndrome.
9.) I have a great deal of fondness for 99.9999% of the people I have met here, but there are a few who really need to get a life.
10.) The real world is looking for great songs, sung with feeling. That takes talent. And that you cannot buy.
But, you can gain friendship by being gracious towards others and having a realistic outlook on your own abilities.
That is what I was saying, and it was not a straw man argument, just a few thoughts on "Let's Get Real."
David Snyder Songwriter/Renaissance Man Studio + Fingers
Not a straw man argument. Not even an argument, just observations. People use that straw man thing a lot I guess because it sounds good, but look it up and see what it means. I don't think it means what you think it means. Will address others in a blanket response.
It's quite a pity that so many wonderful terms and labels are mislabelled & "mistermed". It's often the same with quotations. We had a crown minister who, in 1971, quoted what he believed to be Shakespeare in a deliberately misleading way. There was outrage & protest after he proposed cuts to welfare & essential services to which he responded: "Life wasn't meant to be easy..." This from a chap born wealthy. He, naturally, left it incomplete:"Life wasn't meant to be easy, my child, but take courage: it can be delightful!" It was, of course, George Bernard Shaw's little piece of advice. The misuse and his intentions for it haunted him for the rest of his political life and beyond.
Last edited by rayc; 03/22/2306:22 PM.
Cheers rayc "What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
Not a straw man argument. Not even an argument, just observations.
People use that straw man thing a lot I guess because it sounds good, but look it up and see what it means. I don't think it means what you think it means.
Definitions:
A straw man argument is the logical fallacy of distorting an opposing position into an extreme version of itself and then arguing against that extreme version. (Link)
Often this fallacy involves putting words into somebody's mouth by saying they've made arguments they haven't actually made, in which case the straw man argument is a veiled version of argumentum ad logicam. (Link)
You started this thread by writing:
Originally Posted By: David Snyder
So, in line with the recent discussions on pitch correction in another thread...
I did not use Melodyne.
I just stepped up to a mic and sang it with my heart.
You implied that the notion of singing without Melodyne and singing from your heart is somehow counter to what people in the pitch correction thread said.
But nowhere did anyone suggest that you should never sing without Melodyne. Nigel, who started the thread, doesn't use Melodyne on himself.
And no one has suggested that you shouldn't sing from your heart, or that vocal delivery isn't important.
Similarly, you wrote:
Originally Posted By: David Snider
1.) Your vocal can't possibly work so I guess you'll have to use that AI girl Natalie...
2.) Why don't you just join the crowd and mind your manners, and sing some faux jazz...
"Hey I know I am wearing an avatar mask..."
These "observations" are not accurate representative of what people on this forum have said.
You also wrote:
Originally Posted By: David Snider
These are things a VST cannot touch. To dwell on them at the expense of all else it simply nuts
I'm not seeing anyone who's suggested people should use a VST "at the expense of all else."
That's why I used the term "straw man". I'm looking to see who these people are that are disagreeing with you and... not really finding them.
I assume this thread was something David Snyder started to talk about about the issues around pitch correction software. His personal likes and dislikes.
So...David Snyder, congrats on receiving positive feedback on your vocals.
I seriously doubt anyone here will start using or stop using pitch correction software as a function of anything anyone here has to say.
Pitch correction is very much in use in today's music.
Vocals without pitch correction are also in use in today's music.
What this thread has turned into is a bunch of continuous conversations relating to the agreement and nonagreement on what Nigel posted on another thread. Then we devolve into English 101...lol
So...Let me state my position in no uncertain terms.
I will post things here without pitch correction. I will post things here with pitch corrections. I will sing things myself that indeed can be considered very unprofessional vocals. I will, at times, employ a professional studio vocalist to sing for me. I will, at times, use AI singers. I not be offended by people commenting on the quality of anything I post.
I have to assume that Nigel made his original post in good faith with the good intentions of being helpful. My initial impression was not positive, and I said so in the other thread. I have gone back a reread the thread several times. I stand by what I said.
If I have been remiss in accurately understanding anyone's lofty position in the music world, please post your Grammy nominations and photos of your gold records. Well, your duets with Willie Nelson and Paul McCartney will suffice...lol
Billy
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig? “Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
But I am missing something because I am so far less clever.
Where do you see me mentioning the other thread in this quote, and where do you see me even mention the PG Forum in general?
My Strawman companion desperately wants to know. Also, I believe my opening sentence said I was "in line with" another conversation on pitch correction, but then went on to say I wanted to talk about other things. But for the things YOU are mentioning, they are here. Do you see BIAB forums being mentioned?
My poor straw man is weeping straw tears and I do so want him to stop. I am swearing to him that no argument has been made. I was being somewhat silly, but I assume that is allowed even if the Straw Man has not given me his permission, right?
Originally Posted By: David Snyder
Ray,
I think why I posted this is because I feel there is SO MUCH that goes into a vocal performance that is never really covered on MANY forums out there and all around the world: a lot of stuff about plugins and technology and other things, which always kind of lead to one of two places.
1.) Your vocal can't possibly work so I guess you'll have to use that AI girl Natalie like everyone else and sound like everyone else because we have now moved into a one voice world. Real voices not allowed.
2.) Why don't you just join the crowd and mind your manners, and sing some faux jazz or the 12 bar blues with a three note melody: or else go hide in a closet. Because I said so. And I should know. Although you have never heard of me.
Uh........no thanks.
Oh, I forgot the 3rd staple of Internet forums (and this one is almost sacred):
"Hey I know I am wearing an avatar mask from a Japanese video game and have the stupidest user name ever invented and no one has ever heard of me, and I really have never actually done anything, but unless everyone on the forum does what I say you will never ever make it in the real world. Trust me, I know. How I know, well, I can't say, but just trust me."
So....
No.
There is A LOT that goes into a vocal that has nothing to do with VSTs and editing.
Yet, as an FYI, there HAVE BEEN numerous comments on numerous threads here that I remember which have said that you simply cannot do a professional mix in a professional world without pitch correction.
And youtubes have been posted with engineers saying so.
And there have been quite a number of people saying in different places over time that if you do only Melodyne will do, and it cannot be Melodyne assistant, it has to be Melodyne advanced, and you have to spend all day.
These are just facts. I have read them, not all in one place, but scattered all over, throughout the years.
Again, these are not straw man arguments, these are facts.
And I simply said, in essence, and clarified it to make sure that I was making this transparent: I would like to discuss a few other things.
And that is a fact.
And a fact, sir, is not a Straw Man argument.
David Snyder Songwriter/Renaissance Man Studio + Fingers
[/b]Re: Vocal Delivery_Nashville Has Spoken[b] If I have been remiss in accurately understanding anyone's lofty position in the music world, please post your Grammy nominations and photos of your gold records. Well, your duets with Willie Nelson and Paul McCartney will suffice...lol
Billy, The above does a disservice to everything else in your post.
Cheers rayc "What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
I said I thought you were referring to the pitch correction thread. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
Why didn't you choose to first correct that misunderstanding, instead of suggesting that I don't know what a straw man argument was?
Quote:
Do you see BIAB forums being mentioned?
See? You weren't referring to BiaB forums. No room for misinterpretation there!
Quote:
Yet, there HAVE BEEN numerous comments on numerous threads here that I remember which have said that you simply cannot do a professional mix in a professional world without pitch correction.
So while you definitely weren't referring to BiaB forums... if you had been, you would have been 100% right to do so.
But you weren't referring to BiaB forums. Except for that one place where you did, but that doesn't count.
Quote:
These are just facts. I have read them, not all in one place, but scattered all over, throughout the years.
Obligatory xkcd link:
Quote:
I think why I posted this is because I feel there is SO MUCH that goes into a vocal performance that is never really covered on MANY forums out there and all around the world...
As I said before, I'm not seeing anyone disagreeing with this. Myself included.
I was never under the understanding that you necessarily had to make sense on a forum post.
I was under the distinct impression that not making any sense was the name of the game. And what good Straw Man among us would strive to make sense? It would defy our very nature, which is to all be straw men, every man jack among us.
And in that sense we are both straw men, David Cuny, and we are not so different, you and I, fighting and flapping our arms of straw into a wind of insanity that is sure to bring us down into the wretched pit where so many here have gone to rot and fester.
I shall strive to make a better man of myself and walk away from the tomfoolery, if only for a day.
Good night sir.
David Snyder Songwriter/Renaissance Man Studio + Fingers
[/b]Re: Vocal Delivery_Nashville Has Spoken[b] If I have been remiss in accurately understanding anyone's lofty position in the music world, please post your Grammy nominations and photos of your gold records. Well, your duets with Willie Nelson and Paul McCartney will suffice...lol
Billy, The above does a disservice to everything else in your post.
Infinitely more polite than my reaction to that crap. My hat’s off.
BIAB 2025 Audiophile Mac 24Core/60CoreGPU M2 MacStudioUltra/8TB/192GB Sequoia, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP Digital Performer11, LogicPro, Finale27/Dorico/Encore/SmartScorePro64/Notion6 /Overture5
Tsk, tsk. You come in like the old schoolmarm and take all the fun out of it.
I had to look up what "schoolmarm" meant. The pictures of the stone tablets the definition was etched on brought me up to speed. Now I must insist that you take that back!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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