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It's probably safe to say that there are few, if any, studio recordings over the past 60 years that haven't used some kind of wizardry to get the production as wanted, Outside of the world of commercial pop music, there are many artists who will not use it at all. Two words: Willie Nelson I've been trying to ignore that, but it's been getting to me. Sorry. By "some kind of wizardry" I most definitely did not mean that everyone uses some kind of pitch correction. I did mean that top flight singers and others will at the very least do occasional retakes and that the recordings will almost certainly have some level of mixing/production done on them. And I also recognise that a fair number would avoid even that as far as they can. What I meant was that if pitch correction gets someone a production with which they are happier, then don't be shy/embarrassed about using it. Melodyne only works well on voices if the wave forms are simple enough. Otherwise, it can sound horrible. I agree entirely. I feel exactly the same also about the amount of compression and 'ducking' used in so many modern recordings. It makes me feel like someone is squeezing my head.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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I have seen in many cases, when a singer pubished a well arranged, well composed, well vocal tuned, well vocal EQed single, it gets more views/attentions/recognitions than another singer's ten albums combined.
The wisdom is, modern music is not about quantity, it's all about quality.
In older days when there was no pitch correction software, a singer would record her vocal twenty times, then have the producer spending a whole week doing comping on each take to get the most on-tune result possible.
In nowadays, so many young people want to achieve fame and money via music and internet, and it's hard to stay in the competition without mastering the vocal tuning skill yourself.
A Canadian music producer, singer songwriter, composer, and professional guitarist.
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I think this thread reflects a simple fact: people use the Showcase for different reasons.
If you aspire to modern professional productions you will need to know your way around pitch correction. If that is not your aim, then you don't.
Pitch correction never has written, played or sang a single song ... and never will. It is simply a sophisticated tool to create something, a near perfectly pitched vocal, many people have come to expect.
What is and always will be much more important is writing, playing or singing a song.
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I feel exactly the same also about the amount of compression and 'ducking' used in so many modern recordings. It makes me feel like someone is squeezing my head. I can't vouch for the accuracy of the story, but I remember reading that since so many people listened to music compressed into lossy MP3 format, they actually preferred that sound for cymbals over the true sound, since that's what it "should sound like" to them. The same thing goes with pitch correction. What I might hear as the sickly-sweet sound of auto-tuning, others hear as normal. Just last week, I saw a plugin that allowed you to emulate the "classic" sound of pumping, a byproduct of compressors having an overly slow release that's often associated with dance music. It's not usually considered a good thing, but again - people have gotten used to the sound. Railing against pitch correction seems to me as akin to complaining about drum machines. It's just a tool.
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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Ha !! I use pitch correction on all my songs. I want the vocal to sound as best as I can make it and pitch correction helps tremendously. My choice is Autotune live so I can hear the correction as it's happening. If it's doing too much correction I'll try to change my delivery on the vocal. Maybe I'm trying to do a passage that's either too high for me or I need to "glide" into the phrase. I do think the forum should be for eveyone regardless of skill level. Having said that I'm also a bit in the Nigel camp where I have trusted music friends that will tell me if I'm "way out there" :-) Nothing makes me drop a song quicker than hearing a totally out of tune vocal. Sorry bout that. I also think that when people want to go back to the so called "good old days" they forget how much processing was done on those vocals. Though not pitch correction but a lot of reverb, delay, EQing, Microphone placement (and quality such as a Neumaan (sp) U-87), comping, etc.. to get the desired sound. I have a very good range (probably 4 octave) but I don't post a lot of music in the forum because my songs with the highest adoption rate are not composed in BIAB. I just haven't conquered that yet. I just can't seem to write the stuff I really like with the software. Of course that's on me. I'll leave one comment that some will disagree with but I'll never list Willie nelson or Paul McCartney as GREAT singers :-)
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Of course that's on me. I'll leave one comment that some will disagree with but I'll never list Willie nelson or Paul McCartney as GREAT singers :-)
Knowing that I'm on BIAB, McCartney just called me, and he was sobbing. I mean inconsolable. He couldn't believe that Henry Clarke would say that about him. He told me that he just realized he was an utter failure and his whole life was a joke, and none of his songs would ever compare to the utter majesty that can be achieved on a music software forum. It broke my heart. I don't think he's going to be able to recover from that Henry. You should call and apologize. He was pretty upset.
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The wisdom is, modern music is not about quantity, it's all about quality.
It seems The Getting of Wisdom is only by dental extraction then. in my opinion the statement isn't wisdom: it's opinion...they've in common only O, I! A matter of quality is subjective and the specific aspect ought be made clear. You'd best start providing citations with the latter day axioms. I think Willie makes the point for me regarding QUALITY. He sings as song, he sells a song, he gives the impression the song & narrative are personal. Willie sings up to and slides from a note, he uses blue notes and more. He connects with an audience and that makes him a great singer. I don't much like the stuff Willie sings but that's a matter of taste.
Last edited by rayc; 03/14/23 04:31 PM.
Cheers
rayc
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Of course that's on me. I'll leave one comment that some will disagree with but I'll never list Willie nelson or Paul McCartney as GREAT singers :-)
Knowing that I'm on BIAB, McCartney just called me, and he was sobbing. I mean inconsolable. He couldn't believe that Henry Clarke would say that about him. He told me that he just realized he was an utter failure and his whole life was a joke, and none of his songs would ever compare to the utter majesty that can be achieved on a music software forum. It broke my heart. I don't think he's going to be able to recover from that Henry. You should call and apologize. He was pretty upset. Cut it out Dave !! hahahahahahahahahaha
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Of course that's on me. I'll leave one comment that some will disagree with but I'll never list Willie nelson or Paul McCartney as GREAT singers :-)
Knowing that I'm on BIAB, McCartney just called me, and he was sobbing. I mean inconsolable. He couldn't believe that Henry Clarke would say that about him. He told me that he just realized he was an utter failure and his whole life was a joke, and none of his songs would ever compare to the utter majesty that can be achieved on a music software forum. It broke my heart. I don't think he's going to be able to recover from that Henry. You should call and apologize. He was pretty upset. Cut it out Dave !! hahahahahahahahahaha I would call him but he's "Band on the Run"!! :-)
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[...they actually preferred that sound for cymbals over the true sound, since that's what it "should sound like" to them. The same with the "sound of vinyl"or the sound of a "decent" HiFi system. Yes, they are learnt expectations and preferences. When I listen to the newer remastering of the ancient Lou Reed Live with the Velvet Underground 1969 I don't hear the tape hiss that I spent years getting used to and now the clean version sound white washed.
Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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For those of you in the forum who are hyped up about trying out pitch correction technology after reading this thread.
Today is your lucky day.
There is a built-in pitch correction feature right inside Band-in-a-Box, called "Audio Harmony Fix Tuning Intelligent Mode".
Fire up BiaB, drag your vocal in, close your eyes, and wait for the miracle to happen.
You are welcome. Don't thank me, thank Peter Gannon for giving it to you for free.
A Canadian music producer, singer songwriter, composer, and professional guitarist.
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This feature was also added to the new Powertracks https://www.pgmusic.com/powertracks.features.htm .. along with vocoder ..
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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Hi Folks,
I see PGMusic took no notice of my request to end this discussion - probably a good thing as there have been some witty and amusing posts since.
Now that we are well and truly off the point and discussing the merits or otherwise of Willie Nelson's voice. It takes me back to 1978 and the only album I have ever bought of Willie's music - "Stardust".
I only bought the album because it featured IMHO two of the greatest ever songs (regardless of genre) "Stardust" and "Georgia On My Mind".
Boy - Willie really nailed those two songs. They both have some really challenging notes and phrasing for any singer.
Sure he was helped by some magical backing and super production by Booker T Jones plus a really gutsy decision to stick Willie's vocals way out front in the mixes.
But it really worked!
Best Regards
Nigel
Nigel Spiers
Christchurch, New Zealand
info@nzacoustics.com
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In the FWIW category ... traditionally country music vocals are near invariably 'way out front.'
Bet Willie called it that way.
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In the FWIW category ... traditionally country music vocals are near invariably 'way out front.'
Bet Willie called it that way. That is so true. I couldn't agree more. That's why when "Nashville advocates" tell an RnB guy how he should sound he's way out of his element and I just ignore their comments. It's not that they are wrong. They just see producing from a different perspective. I mean you won't find Sam Smith, Ne Yo, or Bell Biv Devoe being produced in Nashville. Maybe Kanye would go there ?? hahahahahaha
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"Runaway" by Del Shannon was number #1 from four weeks in 1961. His song was 'pitch corrected'
Here's the story:
Quote from "The Riff" by Frank Mastropolo 3.25.21
Harry Balk of Detroit’s Talent Artists arranged for the pair to record “Runaway” in January 1961 at New York’s Bell Sound Studios with Balk producing.
(Max)Crook brought his Musitron from Grand Rapids to New York, where he set it up before skeptical engineers at Bell, then one of the first four-track studios in the world. Shannon’s website explains that when Balk returned to Detroit, he felt that Shannon’s singing was flat and should be re-recorded. Instead, Bell engineers sped up Shannon’s vocals to nearly one-and-a-half times its original speed.
When Shannon heard the way his voice was manipulated, Balk recalled, he was angry.
“He said, ‘Harry, that doesn’t even sound like me!’ I just remember saying, ‘Yeah, but Del, nobody knows what the hell you sound like!’ Two weeks after its release, forget it! It’s selling 50,000. It’s selling 60,000. Eventually, it topped off selling 80,000 records a day. After ‘Runaway’ became a million-seller, Del came in and thanked me for what I had done.”
End Quote.
That was a year before Willie Nelson signed his first major label recording contract, with Liberty Records.
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"Runaway" by Del Shannon was number #1 from four weeks in 1961. His song was 'pitch corrected'
This is a great story. Thanks! But just so those new to the topic aren't confused, this isn't what is meant today by 'pitch correction.' Whatever key Del sang this in his relative pitch was fine. The overall pitch of his vocal was simply raised. Which begs the question, what about the back up music? I imagine the entire original production was simply sped up, not just the vocal. 'Pitch correction,' as currently used, is used when a singer does not have correct relative pitch across a performance even if most notes as sung are correct. The famous introduction of auto tune by Cher in 'Believe' was actually a deliberate misuse of the software's purpose for an exaggerated effect. I'm sure Cher has more than acceptable pitch control.
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"Runaway" by Del Shannon was number #1 from four weeks in 1961. His song was 'pitch corrected'
Whatever key Del sang this in his relative pitch was fine. The overall pitch of his vocal was simply raised. Which begs the question, what about the back up music? I imagine the entire original production was simply sped up, not just the vocal. If he sang flat against the backing then raising it all would've meant he was still flat. Lifting the speed THAT much seems extreme - he'd have had to have been more than flat. THEN synching the sped vocal to the backing would've been a nightmare too - particularly with a tape fourtrack....the vocal would have to be dubbed, cut, diced n spliced then run back into the 4 track. Perhaps it was just a case of speeding up the whole song so it sounded more exciting. If the vocal was raised to fit the backing then it's definitely been "pitch corrected".
Cheers
rayc
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Idle speculations.
So ... as sometimes happens when singing ... Del might have grabbed a note that was a 3rd or 5th above the note he was supposed to start on, i.e., singing harmony. And also been a little flat.
If you multiply a frequency by 1.5 you get a perfect 5th ... essentially what speeding up 1.5 times does. But Del would still be flat if he was flat on the harmony note to start with. So he'd have to be sped up a little more than 1.5. But it says "almost 1.5 times?"
But then how could the lyrics have fit into the arrangement even if the vocal was now in key?
Must be more to the story in some dusty closet in an abandoned recording studio.
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Idle speculations.
Must be more to the story in some dusty closet in an abandoned recording studio. Or memories have become less accurate...or any number of things I suppose. Del's not going to offer a definitive.
Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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