they are not borrowed from anywhere. its quite normal for 'out of key' chords to be used in songs. E major and D major or D7 are quite common in songs in the key of C less so for A major but quite acceptable remembering songs I play. the six chords C,F and G major and D,A and E minor aren't the only ones you can use in the key of C. Bb often crops up too......
most guitarists are used to these chords forming part of the backing - do you play any instrument?
There are areas in a song that can change keys many times without changing the song's key signature. They are called key areas and are explained in the attached PDF :
This is how those out of the song key signature chords are explained. Basically any chord can come after any other chord, even if the modulation is abrupt.
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You should definitely consider learning an instrument. I think it will really help you to fill in the gaps and missing pieces, as practicing playing an instrument will help you understand the theory that you currently find a little mystifying
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You should definitely consider learning an instrument. I think it will really help you to fill in the gaps and missing pieces, as practicing playing an instrument will help you understand the theory that you currently find a little mystifying
Not much time. I have other jobs. I try my best to master BIAB and Scaler, and I am very happy if I can satisfy my music hobby.
It would be better if you know an instrument, I totally agree.
But I have played a number of songs where the II chord was major (in the key of C, that would be D).
They didn't sound bad, and I never analyzed them, but in the context of the song it sounded right. If I substituted a ii chord, it wouldn't have sounded right for that song.
Especially for pop/country/rock music, where many of the songwriters aren't classically schooled, they do things “wrong” that just sound right to them and the people who like those songs.
Other times, the rules are broken intentionally.
I guess the rules for songwriting and improv soloing are pretty much the same. The listener should be able to predict where you are going most of the time. However, if he/she can predict the next note or chord, all the time, it might get boring. So the solution to that is to let them predict most of the time, and every once in a while, throw in a surprise.
As for the ii chord being minor I used to teach guitar and always started off with a keyboard demonstration in C playing the notes in triads - play one, skip one and add, skip another and add - e.g. C E G. So I got C F and G major and D E and A minor.
That showed how any note in the scale could be harmonised with either a major or minor chord and why most folk or pop songs only used three chords. Extremely basic but started students off with an insight that just playing chords or melodies didn't give. I once played with a keyboard player who read the dots and played well but when told to vamp on an F chord had no idea what to do. It also showed how strange the diminished chord starting on B sounded!
............... I once played with a keyboard player who read the dots and played well but when told to vamp on an F chord had no idea what to do. ...............................
That's my wife! Excellent note reading pianist but if I say play C-Am-Dm-G7 I get the deer in the headlight look!
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Some familiarity with the Circle of Fifths (Google it) is helpful in understanding how E and A play in the key of C. A song like All the Things You Are can provide a helpful walk through of how this works. But even if you know all of this theory and more, I agree that making it sound right in YOUR musical context is more important.
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<...snip...> I once played with a keyboard player who read the dots and played well but when told to vamp on an F chord had no idea what to do.<...>
That's not uncommon.
Improvising is a skill like songwriting that not every musician can do.
I'm a very good improviser, but a lousy songwriter. I can read music well and play in an ensemble too, but every song I try to write just sounds trite, especially the lyrics.
I remember watching a music documentary, and Itzhak Perlman was talking with with Andre Previn and wanted to play some jazz.
Itzhak is one of the world's great classical violinists, and besides being a famous jazz musician, Andre was conducting the London Symphony at the time.
Andre tried to teach Itzhak how to do a jazz solo, but Itzhak had no idea and couldn't be taught quickly. So Andre ended up writing a jazz solo for Itzhak and Itzhak read the music and played a 'jazz' solo.
You can be a great player and not know how to improvise, and you can be a great ad-lib player and never feel totally accomplished on your instrument. It works both ways.
We all bring a set of skills to our music. Lean on the things you are good at, and do them well. Practice the things you aren't so good at, and eventually they might join the things you do well.
And if you are a good player and can't jam or write a song, don't worry about it.
Insights and incites by Notes ♫
Last edited by Notes Norton; 03/31/2304:25 AM. Reason: Typo, I'm TYPOMAN, writing all wrongs. :)
> I'm in a song in C major and I often see Emaj and Amaj appearing. My question is where are Emaj and Amaj borrowed from?
These are really E7 and A7 chords, meaning that there is a flatted 7th. You don’t have to play that, but it would be wrong to play something like EMaj7 ar AMaj7, at least very few songs would ever do that, and it might be considered out of the key of C if you did it. —— Here is the theory behind it.
In the key of C, in addition to the chords in C, the dominant 7th approaches to each of the chords are allowed, and seen often. This brings in all these chords, G7,A7,B7,C7,D7,E7,F#7. Of those chords these ones are used very commonly C7, D7, A7, E7, G7 G7 -> C A7 -> Dm B7-> Em C7 -> F D7-> G E7-> Am F#7-> Bdim —— It is important to realize this, because the Emaj is really an E7. And the AMaj is really an A7. Of course it is fjne to play just an E or A chord, but if you need to okay the 7th of the chord, it would be the flatted 7th, or if you need to solo over the chord, you should be thinking of E7 (not EMajor scale, which doesn’t have a flatted 7th).
The chord builder in BiaB is a good place to see what chords belong in the key of C (or any key you set it to. Because each row brings in new chords. Row 1 are the diatonic chords Additional rows bring chords like - the dominant 7ths above - chords from the key of Cm, which brings in nice chords like Fm and Bb7 to they key of C - Cdim7 and related Ebdim7, F#dim7
Inside the chird buikder, you can just click on those chords and see how they sound. If you stick to row 1 (diatonic), you’re sure to get a “normal, nice” chord progression, it would be hard to come up with something bad, and then start experimenting with the lower rows.
Here is a pic of the chord builder. Note that you need to press “show more” to see all this.
So what I recommend for a BiaB user interested in chord theory, is to use that chord builder above.
Just start clicking on row 1 (“diatonic”) and you’ll find that you could almost be randomly clicking on them and still have a nice chord progression. - then start adding in some chords from row2 (“dominant 7th”) and you’ll get the nice added chords like D7, A7, E7, C7 that are used all the time in pop (and jazz). - then bring in the nice chords from the key of Cm, and you’ll add Fm, Bb7, Cm, and Eb to the key of C, which are all great chords and used all the time in the key of C. For example, Fm is one if the nicest chords in the key of C (adds a “sad” quality, especially after an “F” chord), and once you discover it, you can’t live without it. - then explore the lower rows and you’ll be introducing less commonly used chords, that are still present in the key of C. Examples would be CDim7 (diminished), Bm7b5 and F#m7b5.
Thanks Peter, but while we are on the topic of the Chord Builder.
Please allow the customer to change the root chord/key in the tool.
Currently, you have to exit the tool and change the key to the song to get the tool to change, if you're interested in experimenting with other keys.
Also, in the next major release consider adding a few more options like Relative Roman Numeral I, ii, borrowed chord IV/V, transition chords, common progressions and maybe a hard link to a quick video on harmonizing, common next chords ext.
hooktheory.com does a great job of making music theory simple to understand.
Thanks
Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).
In the key of C, in addition to the chords in C, the dominant 7th approaches to each of the chords are allowed, and seen often. This brings in all these chords, G7,A7,B7,C7,D7,E7,F#7. Of those chords these ones are used very commonly C7, D7, A7, E7, G7 G7 -> C A7 -> Dm B7-> Em C7 -> F D7-> G E7-> Am F#7-> Bdim
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MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
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Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
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