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I’m a 24 guy all the way.
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eddie1261
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24 for sure. Studied this exact think in college. This also "glances' off the study of modes.
As I once told my pal who has 6 guitars and can only play the intro to Smoke On The Water, until you understand what WWHWWWH means you really can't begin to understand music. This video indirectly addresses that.
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24 for me. I have never really thought about a 12 key model except that an octave has 12 notes (which is not what this study is referring to).
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I understand both. When I think about modes, I think 12. When I read Rick Beato's book, I think 24.
At the end of the day, there is no confusion when you are reading notes from standard notation/tab or hearing notes, assuming you can hear...lol.
Those notes and chords, for that matter, have to go together no matter what you call them or how you arrived at that sound.
We use a lot of different communication methods to communicate the same thing. For example, D minor, Dmin, Dm, and D-. How to say Dorian to a guitar player. Play like that Santana stuff...lol
Talk to someone from most universities, and it is 24. Talk to the guy who teaches at the music store, and it will likely be 12.
If you are confused by all this, you most likely never learned to speak both French and English...lol do,re,mi, and all that female dear stuff...lol
Billy
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig?
“Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
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Why 24 and not 30? At the last rehearsal I was given a chart with a solo over Dmin then D#min. This is one of those things that music notation programs create when transposing. I don’t know any jazz player who wouldn’t prefer Ebmin to D#min. Same thing enharmonically, but a world of difference when sight reading.
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24 in my late '90s college music theory courses. I remember every Friday we had to write all the major, natural minor, and melodic minor scales on staff paper. The teacher would cut a minute off the time allotted each week. We got pretty quick at writing it all down by the end of the semester although neatness suffered a little bit. 
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I don’t know any jazz player who wouldn’t prefer Ebmin to D#min. I'm definitely one of the jazz players that you do know
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I don’t know any jazz player who wouldn’t prefer Ebmin to D#min. I'm definitely one of the jazz players that you do know Yes indeed you are! So wouldn’t you rather see Ebmin?
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Yes indeed you are! So wouldn’t you rather see Ebmin? My somewhat convoluted reply was really meant to identify that I would ALWAYS prefer Ebmin. It's so much easier to sight read, and just makes sense. (D#min? Yuk  )
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As someone who generally only plays popular styles of music, to begin with, Gb major/F# major and their relative minors of ebmin/d#min, fortunately, are not that common. Several things come to mind about keys. Either you can sight-read the chart, or you can not. Either you are willing to play it in that key, or you are not. If you can and will play in that key, then it does not make much difference. Many things one has to do in music is a PITB. All this 24/12 stuff to the vast majority of guitar players is meaningless, to begin with. Most don't or, more likely, can not site read. Here are a couple of examples of why sight reading for guitar is a pain in the... Example one  Example 2  How many of you would know that example one is to be played in "Chicken Pickin' style or example two is "Travis picking? Sure, someone would most likely tell you that but would you then know how to read the chart? Yes, highly skilled studio musicians guitar players do this every day. There are many ways to communicate musical ideas that have nothing to do with classical training. Ebmin, six flats, why would you write in that key to begin with? Billy
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig?
“Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
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... Ebmin, six flats, why would you write in that key to begin with?
Billy You would likely not. But that's actually a very fair question to discuss. For those of us who compose for large ensembles, the answer is not trivial. I play in a big band where the parts are written for Trumpet in Bb. Most of us compose in concert pitch, and the two chord changes are Cmin (3 flats) to C#min (4 sharps). Now, one can't really argue that C#min should be Dbmin, because that would be eight flats. So it's Cmin to C#min. But what happens when the arranger then prints the trumpet part where everything is raised a full step? At that point, interesting things start to show up. It becomes Dmin (one flat; fine) to D#min (six sharps). D#min is enharmonically correct, but I would rather see Ebmin (six flats). Flat to flat is easier to get your head around. Make sense?
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eddie1261
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Sharp brain vs flat brain. Know the concept well!
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... Ebmin, six flats, why would you write in that key to begin with?
Billy You would likely not. But that's actually a very fair question to discuss. For those of us who compose for large ensembles, the answer is not trivial. I play in a big band where the parts are written for Trumpet in Bb. Most of us compose in concert pitch, and the two chord changes are Cmin (3 flats) to C#min (4 sharps). Now, one can't really argue that C#min should be Dbmin, because that would be eight flats. So it's Cmin to C#min. But what happens when the arranger then prints the trumpet part where everything is raised a full step? At that point, interesting things start to show up. It becomes Dmin (one flat; fine) to D#min (six sharps). D#min is enharmonically correct, but I would rather see Ebmin (six flats). Flat to flat is easier to get your head around. Make sense? This is very logical to me. It is also something that I assume happens from time to time. Generally speaking, most arrangers are not looking to make things difficult or arrange without considering the instrument. If I usually play something in the key of A, and I am lucky enough to get to play with a horn section, I will play it in Bb if it does not mess up the singer. Writers should write in whatever key they want to. I don't like putting limits on people's creativity. But...some of us may be unable to play it very well, if at all. I used to play with an old blues player, Big Walter. Everything he played was in C#. There were no charts, and I could not have read them back then. It may have been a bit of a strange key, but it is actually pretty easy for a guitar player. It puts the relative minor in Bbmin where lead lines and fills behind the vocal could easily come from. Every big band I listen to plays Jazz or Latin. The musicians are generally classically trained in formal music schools. Everyone has a chart on the music stand in front of them whether they are playing off it or not. Most of these people are highly skilled sight-readers but also have great ears. I think it is better to understand music theory and be able to read and write than not. It is also not an absolute necessity for being able to create great music. Even these simple discussions about 24/12 are limited to those of us who have some idea of theory, no matter where we learned the theory. We should try our best to be inclusive and bring other people into these conversations with less structured musical communication methods. I am constantly amazed at the small number of people who actually post things on this forum. Billy
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig?
“Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
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Flat to flat is easier to get your head around.
Make sense? OK, I'm weird, and I've already said that many times .. but you are changing scale either way. Why would flat to flat make it easier? Maybe because I learned keyboards before trumpet, I visualize them in my head the same either way. It's the same notes on the keyboard. At that point the key sig becomes not much more than a label. Granted you probably see Ebm more than D#m in everyday use, so I guess that could make a difference, but I don't understand why the flat to flat would be preferred. Do you get into a 'flat' mode/mentality .. or ? Not trying to be contrary, as the answer may help me to understand other musicians better.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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eddie1261
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Mainly, I think, is because there is no D# ALTO sax. (Good catch, Harv!)
Sharp brain vs flat brain.
Last edited by eddie1261; 05/15/23 01:39 PM. Reason: Changed tenor to alto. My duh!
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Okay, I'm even more confused now .. is there an Eb Tenor??
Alto, yes, but tenor?
And what if they did originally call the Eb alto a D# alto instead, would that have made a difference?
Actually I may be getting it now; writing the alto part out in D# vs Eb (relative concert) would seem more difficult, the theory and all, but is that because we have kinda been trained that way?
Alto is up a minor third; account for it (adjust notation) .. well in C that would be Eb .. maybe I do get it now after all.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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No, it's a coin flip in this one case, so I just like to 'change less' by flat key to flat key. Or maybe it's because I play a Be Flat instrument?
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Transposing instruments like clarinets, saxophones, trombones, and trumpets perhaps requires an explanation for all who don't understand that concept. Also, why would they be made that way?
Billy
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig?
“Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
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Also, why would they be made that way? Often wondered the same thing, but I think it is to get the desired timbre during horn design, and whatever pitch the instrument ends up making when 'open' is the key of the instrument .. but then a guitar/bass would be an 'E' instrument (basically) A very complex/confusing language Like a Bb instrument actually sounds down a step at C, so you have to transpose up one to compensate .. and then they throw in the Eb instruments .. which means transposing 'down' a third (or up 6 to correct for expected notation) .. mental gymnastics in real time, but fun
Last edited by rharv; 05/15/23 12:56 PM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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