PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production Mistake (Song Production In Progress)

This is the song referred to in another thread about learning how to mix. In case you haven't read it I give you the short version.

I haven't liked mixing because it takes a lot of time for me to craft it into a much worse end result.

The doors are wide open on things that are simple for me to work on. I've already learned a few things to and am excited for more. Experimenting at whatever pace is still moving forward.

I guess I'm looking a little bit for things like "roll off the bottom end of the vocals" but even more so "Roll off the bottom end of the vocals. I would start at maybe (answer) Hz and lower" kind of thing. Or compressor, reverb, delay...effects settings to try. Vague leaves me bewildered.

Anyway, there is the song. I wrote it 2 or 3 years ago when there was a discussion about if BIAB could do modern music. If there was a program called MIAB/Mix In A Box I would have had it up already.

**Warning...it's pop!**

Not even close to finished but time for some progress.

Thanks again everyone

Mistake
*The song was originally slower but it just felt like it was dragging. So...135 it is.

For reference I'm kind of going for this kind of sound and loudness of mix.

Since it may be hard to understand, here are the lyrics as well.

((VERSE))
Living in the past won’t fix it
Living in the past can be destructive

But can you hear me out before we fracture and break


Yes, I was in the wrong place
At the wrong time
But there's only one thing... that's been..on..my mind

do you still love me more than you hate my mistake

((RAP))
Well I’ll drown
way down
living with the fall out
This round’s
gotten me bound to the ground
And I know, I’ve found
I’m out
No doubt
it’s more than I can take
Maybe my mistake

((PC))
Ohhh...ad lib
guilty until I prove my innocence
rotting in prison without defense
based circumstantial evidence
That leads to my...

((CHORUS))
Mistake
I know how it looks
it's not what it seems
Can you forgive me for
my

Mistake
In my future
you're that all I see
believe me
please forgive me


((VERSE))
Do you really think if I'd known this
that I would've put what we have at risk

You have to trust when I figured it out that I didn't stay
oh...



((RAP2)
it's just that, trust can’t be built from distrust
But that’s just us
And justice is being served
Maybe from jealous-y
But baby can you see
that may be on me
and maybe my mistake

((PC))
Ohhh...ad lib
guilty until I prove my innocence
rotting in prison without defense
based circumstantial evidence
That leads to my...

((CHORUS))
Mistake
I know how it looks
it's not what it seems
Believe me
Please forgive me

For my
Mistake
In my future
it's you and me
believe me
please forgive me

((Bridge))
A wrong conclusion
makes confusion
Giving the illusion
leading to seclusion
making this delusion
Seem likes it’s real

If you search
My heart and mind
Then you will find
Down deep inside
Nothing to hide
I never lied
And that I
only feel
for you

((PC))
Ohhh...ad lib
guilty until I prove my innocence
rotting in prison without defense
based circumstantial evidence
That leads to my...

((CHORUS))
Mistake
I know how it looks
it's not what it seems
Believe me
Please forgive me

For my
Mistake
In my future
it's you and me
believe me
please forgive me

So far it sounds great! Who/What/How are the vocals made?

Hey HearToLearn,

This is a pretty awesome modern pop song! Is this all BIAB? Certainly has a very contemporary feel to it (unlike the more "classic" sounds of 99.9% of BIAB songs here in the showcase and pretty much ALL of my BIAB songs!)

I'm def no mixing expert, depending mostly on iZotope tools and presets for my mixes, so I have nothing to offer except high praise for the overall effort and maybe a couple of thoughts based on personal preferences.

1) Based on other pop music I'm listening to, this song might benefit from more dynamics. Maybe in the form of quieter/louder sections and/or additional instruments making very brief appearances as garnish.

2) To me, the bridge vocals seem too fast. I like the dynamic effect of the fast (double-time?) vocals but they seem too fast. Maybe they got speeded up when you sped it up to 135?

But again, those are just my personal observations. Your song is quite good and is a Shining Example of pop music in BIAB (assuming of course it was built in BIAB!)

I agree with others, no reason to be worried about being embarrassed on this one.
Only thing I could suggest (but you seem to recognize this already) IMHO the vocals could be a tiny bit more distinct (maybe lower the stuff clashing/burying them a tiny bit, it'll still have the effect, mainly keyboards) .. an enjoyable listen.
Thanx for sharing this

A few thoughts.
Valid? Who knows...

In order to "compare", I set the volume of the the two tracks so that the vocals were as close to the same level as I could make them (by ear)

The Halsey vocal seems to "float" slightly above or around-and-in-front-of the track.
Your (female) vocal seems to sit-in-the-mix - like a Rock song.
(Your rap/male vocal does have that wrap-around quality)
Conventional wisdom is that Country vocals "sit up front".
In those terms the Halsey vocal seems to land in between those 2 (Rock vs. Country).

Comparing the two directly, overall, the reference song keeps the individual instruments "distinct" (yet blended).
MISTAKE has more of a blended feel to the whole track. Especially when the Bass is playing (there is no real Bass in the Halsey song - which helps that "distinct" thing).
EQ and compression would likely play the biggest part in making a track "distinct" or "blended".
One GUESS is that your choice of tracks have more similar frequencies than the choice in the Halsey production - making them "blend" more.
(That is difficult to pin down without having the tracks in front of you in a DAW).

The Kick in H (Halsey) pounds your chest with each hit and is then teamed with other percussion. (They even highlight that in the video)
The Kick in M (MISTAKE) has a different feel - more of a "flow". Assigning those rapid hits to a hat might give the Kick more "space" - but then that is a different thing. But that is one difference between the productions. The lack of other type hits (snaps, claps, funky snares) in M adds to the sense of "flow".

On a sepearte note (no pun intended), the H Kick has a bit of "tone" to it (like an 808). Your Kick seems to be "flat" in comparison (that is subjective, of course).

All that being said...
A SUPER COOL production!!! Impressive. Amazing. Superlatives galore!!!....
It would be nice to know what parts (of the production) are BIAB.
You have talent. (Talents, really).

It's kind of an interesting story. She a demo reel to be considered for jingle work. She is from the Ukraine and was somewhat desperate to make money. This was just days before everything started escalating there. Anyway, I felt bad because I really couldn't use her for any of those projects but decided to hire her to try this. Then things starting getting bad by her. She sent me a rough draft, which is what you hear in what I posted, but wasn't able to make the additional changes. So I only have a REALLY rough draft of the vocals. I just let her keep the money. She needed it more than I did. I pray she is ok.

Thank you! I have to say, since this was a few year in the making, I feel pop music has already progressed beyond this a little bit. So it feels great to hear you say it sounds contemporary!



I totally agree! The actual music bed has more dynamics in the way you are saying. Two things changed after the music. The vocals were added and I used an online mastering site which squashed the life out of it. I was more trying it out and this was the result. In an attempt to make it "loud enough" I lost the overall dynamics.



Again, I totally agree with it. I was going for a combination of Katy Perry and Eminem there. When I sped it up to 135 I went too far. I went plaid! (I have a feeling you will get that reference?) As I'm going to be remixing with tips from here anyway, I'm going to try to find a slower tempo that fits it better.



Thanks a million for being willing to say what you did. I'm not all that touchy when it comes to suggestions on mix. Granted mixing is similar to music itself in that mixing has many different preferences. I love hearing them, trying them, and learning something either way. You never know when you might need a different perspective than your own little box. You definitely seem to get what I was going for though!

As far as BIAB, some of the major parts are from that. I export everything to a DAW, like many do, and mess with it there. Unfortunately I will have to go back and see what the track names are. I forgot when they export they had names like "piano" no matter what track it was.

So anyway, it's a combination of, from what I remember, real tracks, some BIAB midi tracks, then I did some synth programming, and trigger samples. No loops where used.

Wow! What an amazing story! Thanks for sharing. It was awesome of you to let her keep the $$$. The reason I asked was I was wondering if you mastered an AI vocal that I didn't hear before! She does have a great voice though. You find her on Fiver or some other vocal service?

I appreciate you saying that. I wouldn't say I'm so much worried or embarrassed...continually frustrated? It's sort of like they say "ignorance is bliss." I've worked with some very talented people who have always me sound the way I would like it to be. Without them...yikes.




Two things with that...
1-The vocal was a combination of pitchy and the timing was off. I didn't fix all of the timing issues yet. The pitch I had to do something I've never done. I ran it through two pitch correction tools. It sounds very synthetic as a result but between that and really OFF notes, I decided to go with synthetic. Especially with it being pop which can lend itself to that type of sound at time.

2-As of right now all I know how to do is turn something up. When I did that you could REALLY hear mistakes in the vocal. Maybe someone that is better with pitch correction could line it up a bit better. More-so though, I really need to be able to carve out frequencies from elements that compete with it. I understand the concept but the application is lost on me. But, I'm here to learn!

Your observations are right on and I very much appreciate you giving me some insights! Good suggestions for sure! Thank you for that!

For what it's worth this is the track pre-sung vocal. The rap part is there though because that's what I was working on. Anyway, it gives you a better idea of the instrumentation that's there. Not saying it's mixed well but there is much more distinction of the instruments. Then I added mud...

I'll look into what real tracks where used, but I'm sure you will recognize a few.

Also, this is at the original tempo.

Mistake-Instrumental w/ Rap

The music I do is pretty far away from this, and I generally don't like pop vocals, but I enjoyed this! I also listen to songs with an ear to how I might add horn arrangements, and that's not called for here.

I like the tempo, especially when compared to the Soundcloud backing track. The sixteenth note pulse really kicks it forward.

THAT is a fantastic idea. I know people who have done this but never thought to USE it! Duh! What a simple but effective way to get instant insight to what needs to be at what level roughly. THANK YOU!



I totally understand where you are coming from. Halsey's vocals are the center piece on a mostly empty table. These vocals are the center piece but on a table filled for a buffet. lol

Seriously though, this is somewhat intentional; not because I don't like showcased vocals but because I felt the need to hide them. They were out of tune and tuning made them sound less than stellar. You can still hear the tuning obviously, but not to the degree of how they sound when they are by far the most prominent thing you hear. I'm thinking of posting the vocals only or whatever, to see how people would go about fixing them as best as they could be. It would be a useful skill to know. I think my patience wasn't there in going in and tweaking with melodyne. That's painful for me and still sounds awful.

Thanks for being willing to say something because I never know what I don't hear until it's point out! That's where learning begins.



Right on. The rap was a strong vocal take so it was doubled, spread, and had various effects to let it surround a bit more. I wrapped the rap?

I do know what you mean about Halsey's sitting between country and rock. I think pop producers have been doing this as some of the artists are cross overs and somewhat create an expected or signature sound to their vocals. I could be wrong. Great observation!



This is where I'm severely lacking! I know exactly what you mean about the sound yet do not know what to do about it. What you mentioned for why that happens or doesn't happen I wouldn't have known. My general feeling has been, "that's just a big bowl of low end mush." I tried a few things and ended up with it sounding worse. So I figured if what I tried made it worse, the opposite would probably sound better...and that myth got busted. That's part of what made me post. Out of frustration I decided to call in an intervention.

I've been messing a bit with what you've said, still without much success. Do you feel it would be more beneficial to post all the tracks and ask people what they would do? I feel like that asking so much of people...even if they are willing. I have no idea how many questions I would have come from it! lol



I probably shouldn't have posted this as I "I'm trying to get it to sound like this" and instead said "Here is an artist that does songs in the style I am looking to do. Not necessarily this specific song though."

Taking into account your comments though, I have been relistening to her music and others like hers to see what I like about it. More specifically, what makes the song work. The arrangements are very sparse in comparison. Have I brought too much orchestra arranging into my simple pop songs? Have I jammed too many ideas that I could use one OR the other and chosen BOTH too many times? That's a really good possibility.

Here is a weird piece to the puzzle for me though. The instrumental track on it's own seems MUCH more distinct, clear, and uncluttered to me. There is still a lot going on, but once the vocals and vocals effects are added I end up with a S*^t smoothie. Sorry, that just how I felt in this moment. I've never used that phrase before. lol



Agreed. I tinkered with an 808 and lost the percussive definition of the faster kicks as a result. Thinking about it more, I may have to look for places that are not so fast and add a tone in here and there. I like me some 808 if the song/genre calls for it.


That's very nice of you to say. I really enjoy production. I always have. To me, if production is playing soccer, mixing is the kick to my shin. Maybe groin. It takes me out of the game for a bit.
Just curious if you went through that at all as a song writer? If so, did you ever end up enjoying the mixing side, or do you still see it as a necessary evil? To be clear, I love great mixes and am in aw of them. I will flat our say I love 'em. It's just not something I look forward to. And by look forward to I mean, attempt and get sucky results, or have to pay for the. What a complainer, right? Lol.

Anyway, thank you so much for taking the time to listen and comment with your suggestions and insights. That really does mean a lot to me.

This is a very modern-sounding song. It is in a style that would likely have a pretty wide appeal among younger people.

I enjoyed listening. It is certainly different from songs that are normally posted here. That is a good thing.

I will leave the technical comments to others. I will say that for me, a song either sounds interesting or it does not. I like this song the way it is. Could further technical changes embellish the song? Perhaps, but I don't think those changes would change much for me.

Thanks for being kind to people from Ukraine. They are living through hell. I have had to privilege of being of some assistance.

Thanks for sharing.

Billy

Wow! I like it! Very different from most of the postings here. Refreshing. Just goes to show you that PG products can do modern tunes. Hope the younger folks take note and run with this.

Jeff

Thanks for the comments Billy. I really do appreciate your insights with this. I think because I have six kids ages 16-26 I hear A LOT of their music. I try to find the things we both can enjoy and even try to see what they do like about the songs I maybe don't care for. Because there is a 10 year age difference from the youngest to the oldest they grew up in different decades of music. To have 3 generations of observable reactions to music has been fun.

I agree on the Ukraine. It was a strange feeling going from "hey would you be able to change this one word" to "hey...are you ok? I'm truly worried for your safety...your life." It's a dark time for them. I hope a humane solution can be found.

thanks again for the comments!

I hoping as well. I really do enjoy writing and producing this style of music. Of course, many others as well. It's been a fun adventure.

thanks for the encouragement!