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This is a work in progess. Fact is, there can only be further progess with the help of you kind folks providing direction. This started as a collaboration based upon a shared interest in a commerical song which caught our attention (you can find "The grey wolf hunts again" for the original inspiration on youtube. The objective of our efforts were to recreate the groove and vibe of this instrumental song to the semi-pro quality standards. Turns out our abilities may not be up to the task, hence after many production meetings we have concluded it may be best to discontinue further efforts .... or not. So I am posting the work done to date. I have included a picture of the Session Map showing who is playing what and when to help orientate your listening. The production team's question to the forum - is the groove coming through (do you feel the funk)? Please put you production hats on and tell us if we are on the right path or should this be put to rest? Can a vibe like this be properly captured using the midi tools in Kontakt, EZD, EZK and EZBass combined with BIAB RTs? https://on.soundcloud.com/48gkkthe Band BIAB RealTracks • 3750:Guitar, Electric, Rhythm PopFunkySoulLowSingleNoteChorus Ev 095 • 3249:Guitar, Electric, Background ModernFunkSingleNotesBob Ev16 110 • 587:Sax, Tenor, 2-Beat Rock Ev 110 Kontakt - Session Guitarist - Electric Mint (Strat) and Sunburst Deluxe (LP) EZKeys 2.0 Electric Dream Machine, Midi-Packs: Funk and Modern Funk EZD3 - Manually transcribed from original mp3 EZBass - Modern Clean-DI Midi Pack Modern Funk ![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=25557&filename=Spirit of the Gray Wold - 101723.png) thanks much - all comments are welcome. Dan
Last edited by MusicStudent; 10/17/23 02:05 PM.
BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud (Tip: No need to create a SC account to hear music - just hit ESC ).
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Dan, think you're on the right track with the funkiness. Craig Chaquico's tune is to my ears inventive and playful over the course of four and a half minutes in ways that is sometimes challenging for BiaB over similar lengths. (I'm not familiar with Kontakt). I can see/hear you changing things up as the song progresses and that's part of it. The other part that is less obvious to me is building that sense of surprise without the human element. For example, I smiled a couple of times at Craig's choices in ways that BiaB only very seldom does. Think that's the genie we're all looking to chase into the bottle...
On the other hand, if you hadn't asked for a comparison with a very specific (and outstanding) funk tune, I would have thought your take quite good on its own. Love, love, LOVE funky minor vamps.
Thanks for sharing!
DC Ron
BiaB Audiophile
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Too many guitars (is that a thing?)
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That's actually pretty close to the original. Maybe a little bit too close actually. It seems to stay on the main theme and never gives a reprise like I heard in Craig's tune. Honestly, I skipped through both in 10 second jumps.
The funk is peeking through however. You have the potential for a pretty decent tune if you give it a variation from the main theme that keeps the listeners engaged.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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The concept of funk confounded 70s hard rock groups like Zeppelin & Deep Purple...they tried and failed...often spectacularly.
The groove on this one is pretty good.
the bass parts are good - perhaps a little EQ peak at 3K, (just a couple of dB and a narrow Q), will bring out the best in it.
maybe a little volume automation to emphasize "the one" on the bass n drums. The backing track is pretty cool though.
The intro sounded messy and unfunky - not the place to start a funky piece - it also ends quite abruptly. I think, generally, the lead guitar is trying to hard and missing the point. Listen to some of Prince's jams. Playing four to the floor over a funk backing can work but not for extended times. I'm undecided about the sax.
I listened to the inspiration and it, too, has an intro messed up by delay & reverb. Much of the guitar part on the inspiration does the spaces as well as the notes well. That may what's missing on your track.
Jeff Beck & Jan Hammer were doing this sort of thing when I saw them in the late 70s.
Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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Dan, think you're on the right track with the funkiness. Craig Chaquico's tune is to my ears inventive and playful over the course of four and a half minutes in ways that is sometimes challenging for BiaB over similar lengths. (I'm not familiar with Kontakt). I can see/hear you changing things up as the song progresses and that's part of it. The other part that is less obvious to me is building that sense of surprise without the human element. For example, I smiled a couple of times at Craig's choices in ways that BiaB only very seldom does. Think that's the genie we're all looking to chase into the bottle...
On the other hand, if you hadn't asked for a comparison with a very specific (and outstanding) funk tune, I would have thought your take quite good on its own. Love, love, LOVE funky minor vamps.
Thanks for sharing! Ron, you have some insightful comments. I agree CC has captured a "sense of surprise" in his creation and I also smiled at his choices. But, I am a bit unsure what you mean by "human element"? Perhaps you are referring to incorporating human creativity which is difficult when working with a "stock / canned chord chart". In fact, for me getting the chords from this mp3 was truely the most difficult part of the project. Also, there is no BIAB Style used here. So the CC's chords and Rhythms are all "man-made". Thanks again, Dan
BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud (Tip: No need to create a SC account to hear music - just hit ESC ).
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That's actually pretty close to the original. Maybe a little bit too close actually. It seems to stay on the main theme and never gives a reprise like I heard in Craig's tune. Honestly, I skipped through both in 10 second jumps.
The funk is peeking through however. You have the potential for a pretty decent tune if you give it a variation from the main theme that keeps the listeners engaged. Good observation, yes I struggled with the "themes" for the multiple sections of this arrangment. I first started with a "Frankenstein" approach where I built the section based on themes from any and all genres and styles provided within EZKeys (and I have a boat load of EZK libraries). In that case there was a large difference between the sections in terms of play style. But the production team felt it was too varied. So in this current version I restricted the options to only the Funk and Modern Funk midi libraries. In order to get more "...variation from the main theme that keeps the listeners engaged" I think I will go back and have a different piano player sit in for the latter sections. Thanks much - Dan
BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud (Tip: No need to create a SC account to hear music - just hit ESC ).
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The concept of funk confounded 70s hard rock groups like Zeppelin & Deep Purple...they tried and failed...often spectacularly.
The groove on this one is pretty good.
the bass parts are good - perhaps a little EQ peak at 3K, (just a couple of dB and a narrow Q), will bring out the best in it.
maybe a little volume automation to emphasize "the one" on the bass n drums. The backing track is pretty cool though.
The intro sounded messy and unfunky - not the place to start a funky piece - it also ends quite abruptly. I think, generally, the lead guitar is trying to hard and missing the point. Listen to some of Prince's jams. Playing four to the floor over a funk backing can work but not for extended times. I'm undecided about the sax.
I listened to the inspiration and it, too, has an intro messed up by delay & reverb. Much of the guitar part on the inspiration does the spaces as well as the notes well. That may what's missing on your track.
Jeff Beck & Jan Hammer were doing this sort of thing when I saw them in the late 70s. I really appreciate the persepctive. Let me try to address a few of your observations: The mix was very difficult for me. At first try my ear said "turn every track up!" In fact, the template I selected from Ozone for Mastering was entitled "In your Face"!. I heard this as a Jam performance so it only sound good to me if it was blasting. I really wanted to include the guitar intro which I felt was so characteristic of the tune. I used Melodyne to convert the first 9 bars, to midi and then sent that to Session Guitarist in Kontakt. All 8th and 16th notes squeezed into the bars - nothing quantized. First attempt was a bit of a mess, but with midi editing I was able to train my ears to thinking it sounded "ok". So Ya, I agree - my attempt to reproduce this was a bit off mark. Regarding the ending - that is my trademark style of crappy truncated endings. You can always identify my early efforts by this characteristic. The length of the song. Well it was what it was since I was trying to fully emulate the original. In addition, members of the production team have a predispostion to longer arrangements. Perhaps you know who I mean?  Thanks again for your inputs - Dan
BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud (Tip: No need to create a SC account to hear music - just hit ESC ).
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No one commented on the drums? I believe that is because they are so damn perfect! I will share with you that these drums were professionally "transcribed" in EZDrummer 3, by my friend Shawn over at Shootie School. In fact, I have a 90 minute video of the entire process for anyone interested in seeing how this was accomplished.
BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud (Tip: No need to create a SC account to hear music - just hit ESC ).
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Hi, Dan.
I had a listen to both songs.
Craig's piece is the in the pocket.
Your version doesn't seem to feel the beats 2 and 4 the same. When the keys hit those beats, the other instruments don't. So it feels like there's always someone who's not got the funky feel.
There's good stuff there, but - for me - it just doesn't seem to gel. Too many people trying to take the lead instead of holding down the groove together.
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Great observation David.
Craig has a group of pros in studio all playing with focus on the same feel/beat at the same time. But working with BIAB RTs, EZKeys, EZBass and the associated midi for the Kontakt guitars is like herding cats to get them all playing together with the same focus.
I think the EZDs were the best reproduction of Craig's song. This was really groovin on the 2 and 4. But the drums were done by a pro at my end.
I am not putting any blame on the midi-tools used in this song. I am sure the lack of focus is more my lack of experience in coding the midi (which permits lots of expression). But I am personnally skeptical of the BIAB RTs ability to focus on the task at hand. As the arranger, there is not really a lot I can do to focus them.
Good input - gives me something to think about here.
Dan
BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud (Tip: No need to create a SC account to hear music - just hit ESC ).
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