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After reading DC Ron's response to my comment (see here), the question came to mind: Where to put the climax of a song? I usually upload my songs to YouTube, and the statistics show how long listeners actually listen to a song. My last song has by far the worst performance of all my songs, after 1 minute 65% of the listeners are already gone, and it's actually worse because you tough guys mostly listen to the complete drama to comment, which makes the stats look better. And, you might guess, the climax/payoff (as in DC Ron's song) is towards the end (the a capella chorus), so most people miss it. So, if you're still reading at this point  : what is the best place for the best part of your song?
Logically, not at the beginning, because from then on it can only go downhill, and also not (as a dramatic build-up would suggest and where I would like to place it) at the end, because by then most listeners are long gone. Since you guys have much more experience than I do, what are your thoughts and/or experiences? Or do you just not care?
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Brian, IMHO a good song is a good song regardless of where the climax is located. Of course that implies there is a climax and one can define a climax. Are the choruses multiple climaxes? Or maybe the bridge?
Maybe people who stop listening are not a fan of that genre. I know that I stop listening to many songs on Youtube because I don't care for them, regardless of the genre. A side note I always completely listen to songs regardless of the genre on the showcase forum. I am interested in how others use BiaB and amazed at how good virtually all of the songs are in the showcase.
Actually if you want your songs critically analyzed you must join a group that does that as a business. Of course that means you must pay for that service and that service analyzes songs in your genre. It also means you had better have some thick skin. It also means that you want to make money with your music.
I just record songs I want to record and post them. If someone likes them fine, if not that is OK also.
I have gotten a lot of good advice on the showcase forum and have improved, at least in my mind (YMMV). But I am not trying to make money with them.
It takes courage for a man to admit his wife was wrong.
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The question might be less about where to place the climax than how to keep listeners engaged. I attempt to create interest as a song progresses in several ways. Could be new instrumentation, a harmony, a bridge, a pre-chorus, a key change, a BGV, a lyrical twist, etc. It just has to be fun to listen to and serve the song. On the example in the OP, I was saving two cool sounding alternative readings of the title line for the outro. Songs like My Best Friends Girlfriend always keep me until the end because I love the new ways he finds to sing the title line as they wrap it up. I can think of dozens of songs that don't do this that I love just as much though. So it depends.
But I do love it when someone is listening to the final note and says, "That's SO cool..."
DC Ron
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The question might be less about where to place the climax than how to keep listeners engaged. I guess you're right. I remember one famous reviewer telling that he stopped listening to Billie Eilish's "Happier Than Ever" _before_ the interesting (second) part began, because he didn't expect the song to change much. It seems that "expected changes" is something you need to imply.
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Actually if you want your songs critically analyzed you must join a group that does that as a business. Of course that means you must pay for that service and that service analyzes songs in your genre. It also means you had better have some thick skin. It also means that you want to make money with your music. The analysis part has already been covered by you guys in the Showcase forum I think it boils down to what Ron said, which is how to keep the listener engaged long enough to get them to the most important/beautiful/whatever parts without overwhelming them with too much variety.
Last edited by B.D.Thomas; 10/29/23 06:38 AM.
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Actually if you want your songs critically analyzed you must join a group that does that as a business. Of course that means you must pay for that service and that service analyzes songs in your genre. It also means you had better have some thick skin. It also means that you want to make money with your music. The analysis part has already been covered by you guys in the Showcase forum Well, having submitted a few songs to one of the services that analyzes songs as a business, Mario is absolutely correct. For better or worse, the analyses in the Showcase forum are quite a bit friendlier than what you would get from the pros. Which is not a knock on this forum whatsoever. It's just brutal out there. Ha!
Last edited by DC Ron; 10/31/23 08:59 AM.
DC Ron
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I'm giving a behind the screen look at my process. But hey.... We're all friends here.... Well, most of us anyway....so....
I believe you have to grab the listener within the first 15 seconds or you risk losing them. Then if you manage to keep them at this point, you have to deliver the goods before the one minute point. So long intros lose your audience before you ever sing the first word. Then if your chorus is not started by the one minute mark and you decide to go with two verses, you lose more and if the chorus is not the climax of the song.... Well you're in danger of losing the rest.
People don't have long attention spans. Grab them quick and deliver the goods quickly.
Now.... How I listen. And I'll never tell you what I do with any given song unless I really like it and mention specifically that I listened to it all or multiple times.... My normal procedure is I'll give it 10 seconds to 20 seconds. From that I have determined if I want to hear the rest. I'll often listen through the first vocal line to decide either continue to listen or click close on the song. If you haven't started the vocal at 20ish seconds, I'm generally out. I might jump ahead into the middle to see if the vocals have started.
Then..... The only question is should I stay or should I go?
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I'm giving a behind the screen look at my process. Herb, I listen about this same. Except I'll listen to an entire forum song even if there's nothing there to grab me. Think a discussions of how musical hooks grab a listener is useful. To your point, it really has to be done early and often. Especially in this age where the listener can click Next and move on so easily...
DC Ron
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[quote=DC Ron
Herb, I listen about this same. Except I'll listen to an entire forum song even if there's nothing there to grab me.
Think a discussions of how musical hooks grab a listener is useful. To your point, it really has to be done early and often. Especially in this age where the listener can click Next and move on so easily... [/quote]
I always listen to an entire song in the showcase forum.
I will add that what you may like or dislike in songs may be determined on your mood. I have listened to songs that I wasn't fond of and listened at a different time and liked it. Maybe that is just me but I thought that I should mention it.
It takes courage for a man to admit his wife was wrong.
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[
I always listen to an entire song in the showcase forum.
I will add that what you may like or dislike in songs may be determined on your mood. I have listened to songs that I wasn't fond of and listened at a different time and liked it. Maybe that is just me but I thought that I should mention it. So true, Mario. Another interesting effect is created when the listener identifies with the lyrics in a very personal way. So the songwriter may choose to tell a story that has sufficient ambiguity to allow for interpretation. Y'know, if I'm listening to a song that's about ME, I'm certainly going to hear it through. Heck, I MAY even listen more than once...
DC Ron
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[
I always listen to an entire song in the showcase forum.
I will add that what you may like or dislike in songs may be determined on your mood. I have listened to songs that I wasn't fond of and listened at a different time and liked it. Maybe that is just me but I thought that I should mention it. So true, Mario. Another interesting effect is created when the listener identifies with the lyrics in a very personal way. So the songwriter may choose to tell a story that has sufficient ambiguity to allow for interpretation. Y'know, if I'm listening to a song that's about ME, I'm certainly going to hear it through. Heck, I MAY even listen more than once... Ron, you don't want to hear a song about me!
It takes courage for a man to admit his wife was wrong.
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Ron, you don't want to hear a song about me! Ha! Too late. I think I already have...
DC Ron
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Too many guitars (is that a thing?)
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If any formulaic approach ever worked, then everyone would be writing hits all the time.
It’s an ok questions, I suppose, but there is no answer.
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If any formulaic approach ever worked, then everyone would be writing hits all the time.
It’s an ok questions, I suppose, but there is no answer. I agree with you that there is no one answer, Mike. There are plenty of theories and lots of science about songwriting, but their application doesn't ensure an interesting song, much less a hit. On the other hand, AI will write a hit song soon, if it hasn't already. I'd like to think I won't like it, but I might. Didn't think I'd ever appreciate vocaloids either...
DC Ron
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If any formulaic approach ever worked, then everyone would be writing hits all the time.
It’s an ok questions, I suppose, but there is no answer. My question wasn't about writing a hit song, I just wanted to know what the best approach is for non-hits. When I listen to other people's music, my approach is similar to Herb's, and in fact most of my own songs follow more or less the timings he mentioned. But sometimes my songs want a late climax or a late surprise. But I think with today's attention span, that's no longer possible.
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The answer is to keep the listener engaged. It's like asking where a chorus should be placed. There's the old cliche "Don't bore us, get to the chorus", but one song might need more development before bringing in the chorus, while another song might start with the chorus. Mario mentions "hooks", and it's the same idea - what are you doing in the song to keep them engaged and wanting to continue to listen? A provocative line opening a verse gets a users attention; a developing story keeps their interest; a satisfying chorus brings everything together; development in additional verses gives new meaning to the chorus... I can recognize when it's done right in a song. But it's not so easy to do it myself, though. 
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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The answer is to keep the listener engaged. It's like asking where a chorus should be placed. There's the old cliche "Don't bore us, get to the chorus", but one song might need more development before bringing in the chorus, while another song might start with the chorus. Mario mentions "hooks", and it's the same idea - what are you doing in the song to keep them engaged and wanting to continue to listen? A provocative line opening a verse gets a users attention; a developing story keeps their interest; a satisfying chorus brings everything together; development in additional verses gives new meaning to the chorus... I can recognize when it's done right in a song. But it's not so easy to do it myself, though. David, that's a very nice summation of everything I should have said. Ha!
DC Ron
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Too many guitars (is that a thing?)
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I can't think of a worse way to write songs than to tweak them to maximize youtube view stats.
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I can't think of a worse way to write songs than to tweak them to maximize youtube view stats. Not disagreeing with that.
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Y'know I agree in principle for myself.
But...I grew up with AM radio. Back then, acts like the Beatles purposefully wrote songs that would make girls scream and buy their 45s. But while they were at it they invented a whole new type of music that went way beyond the early rock and roll, soul, skiffle and show tunes that influenced them. I have several music influencers on my YouTube feed and they are inventive and fun. And sure, they are probably writing songs for my demographic. But...I think I'm glad they do. So I cut this new generation a little slack. This is all they know.
That being said I don't write songs around YouTube viewing stats and doubt I'll ever care to.
DC Ron
BiaB Audiophile
Presonus Studio One
ASUS I9-12900K DAW, 32 GB RAM
Presonus Faderport 16
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Ready to take your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 experience to the next level? Now’s the perfect time! Expand your style library with XPro and Xtra Styles PAKs—packed with a wide variety of genres to inspire your next musical creation.
What are XPro Styles and Xtra Styles PAKs?
XPro Styles PAKs are styles that work with any version (Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition) of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 (or higher). XPro Styles PAKS 1-9 includes 900 styles!
Xtra Styles PAKs are styles that work with the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 (or higher). With over 3,500 styles (and 35 MIDI styles) included in Xtra Styles PAKs 1-20, the possibilities are endless!
Get the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Listen to demos and order now! For Windows or for Mac.
Note: XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Get Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 19 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Listen to demos and order now! For Windows or for Mac.
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 19 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
Don’t miss this chance to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box setup—at a great price!
Mac 2025 Special Upgrade Offers Extended Until August 15th!
It's not too late to upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® and save! We've extended our special until August 15, 2025!
We've added many major new features to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®, including advanced AI tools like the amazing BB Stem Splitter and AI Lyrics Generator, as well as VST3 plugin support, and Equalize Temp. Plus, there’s a new one-stop MIDI Patches Picker with over 1,100 MIDI patches to choose from, all neatly categorized by GM numbers. The MultiPicker Library is enhanced with tabs for the SongPicker, MIDI Patch Picker, Chord Builder, AI Lyrics Generator, and Song Titles Browser, and the tabs are organized into logical groups. The Audiophile Edition is enhanced with FLAC files , which are 60% smaller than AIFF files while maintaining identical audio quality, and now ships on a fast 1TB SSD, and much more!
Check out all the new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® here:
Purchase your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac during our special to save up to 50% off your upgrade purchase and receive a FREE BONUS PAK of amazing new Add-ons. These include the 2025 RealCombos Booster PAK, Look Ma! More MIDI 13: Country & Americana, Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes, MIDI SuperTracks Set 44: Jazz Piano, Artist Performance Set 17: Songs with Vocals 7, Playable RealTracks Set 4, RealDrums Stems Set 7: Jazz with Mike Clark, and more!
Upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and add 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and 20 RealStyles, FLAC Files for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks, Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster, MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster, Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8, and RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe.
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs!
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