PG Music Home Forums PG Music Wishlists Band-in-a-Box Wishlist Please remove all previous pickers.

New Multipicker (MTP) is great and overall a huge improvement in workflow.
Please consider removing all other pickers. It seems there is absolutely no need for them any more. Less unwanted clutter.
Thank you.

+1000, that will help simplifying the GUI, which is much needed. It will also help to avoid confusion, specially for new users.

+1 When you right click anywhere it asks you if you want RT or other things. All these type commands lead to the old pickers with the old confusing button structure. On one hand you would lose some functionality with this request. But I think overall it would be better. Everything you need will be in the multipicker

Yes, this would be a good patch.

I'm thinking (hoping?) that we are going through a transition period, and that this removal will eventuate.

Do you really think it was not considered? Peter loves redundacy. He is convinced it has value. We talk about this every year when new features are added which improve upon current procedures. The old never goes away.

Unfortunately, old stuff not going away tends to result in more bugs and quirks.

The more code there is, the more bugs there are. That's pretty much a given.

Agreed.

KISS

Just get it fixed first:
BB24 UserTrack Partial/Change

I disagree, at the moment anyway.
Some functions now require more clicks that weren't needed before. All seems a bit crazy to me, spend all that time giving us the option to open something easier and then adding more pop up windows.

Lee,
Explain.
What exactly needs "more clicks that weren't needed before".
Perhaps instead of bashing my request, you should weight in on overall benefits of having a complete PGMusic library in a single place within non modal window and give specific suggestion/wish to what bothers you specifically in new MTP (Multipicker) Library.

Not sure how you got the idea I'm bashing your request? I'm just disagreeing because the Multipicker is far from perfect and not ready - if it was then I'd be agreeing with you 100%. If I'm bashing anybody then it's the developers / designers.

I can't say what bothers me specifically, I haven't got time just yet to go through it all. A few things from memory - some things that were simply checkboxes, right there on the page are now inside a popup, requiring unnecessary mouse clicks.

I love the idea of the multipicker, it's one of their better ideas, but IMO it's still not done very well and therefore, until / if such a time comes that improvements are made then I'd still like to have the choice of using the other options.

Bashing might not be the right word. Disagreeing without a specific reason. That is what I meant.

" can't say what bothers me specifically"
When you do, post it. If reasonable/beneficial, I will gladly support it.

" it's still not done very well"
Explain. That is what the Wishlist is for.

What is certain is that we will not go back. The Multipicker is fabulous and the old selectors will remain in place: everyone is happy!

"old selectors will remain in place: everyone is happy!"

I am not "happy" about completely uneeded complexity, that in turn makes software not only more difficult to use, but also less stable / creating internal conflicts (bugs) that vast majority of users will suffer from. It's too big of a sacrifice for those few who can't even express clearly to why they need it (all previous pickers).

Since Windows 3 we have always kept CTRL C or CTRL V even if there are other ways to do it.

I haven't noticed any more bugs with the Multipicker, except this multistyle thing, but that depends on other factors.

We had the example of Deb, recently, visually impaired, and who is so used to the location of HER buttons. What would we offer her if she could no longer manipulate according to HER habits?

+1
It's also more complexity for the developers to work with, manage and test. More complexity -> more bugs.

In many ways we should try to follow the principles of Occam's Razor.

I'm basing my answer only on what I have read as I have not received my BiaB yet but I would think that keeping those old pickers in place would be very confusing to new customers. YMMV

-1

While I generally agree that cleaning up the software should include removing old features that have newer replacements, in this case I feel removing the old pickers at this point would be VERY premature! There will be bugs and they will take time to work out. Let's not remove working features until the bugs are ironed out!

JJJ,
besides hypothesis, do you have concrete bugs that you are aware that are present in new picker, which are not in any of the old pickers?
If yes, kindly list them. Obviously if all other pickers will be removed, it will have to go through Pre-release testing stage.

Again, I am kindly asking anybody who is against the idea of removing previous pickers, to be very specific and support their views with concrete examples of workflow issues/bugs that are present in new MTP Library that are absent from other pickers. We are not talking about a book or a painting here, but very specific part of software. I want PGMusic to be aware of the specific reasons, to why people think they should leave huge chunk of code in their software, which seems obsolete.

Rustyspoon, I don't have "concrete bugs" for you but I do have 10+ years of experience with this software and many more years experience writing and selling software.

I don't understand your hurry in removing essential functionality before the BIAB Annual Paid User Beta Testing is completed!

And removing large chunks of code is never something to be done casually. Have you ever wondered why computer game producers leave all their test code (cheats and Easter eggs to us gamers) in the released product? The reason is, to remove that code may cause more harm than good.

Your proposal is a good one but premature.

-1

"before the BIAB Annual Paid User Beta Testing is completed"
LOL

I don't believe request is premature. This is a wishlist, and I have no doubts,if it will be considered (removing obsolete pickers), it will be no earlier than we will get VST3 support, which I hope we will receive by the end of February.

In my humble view, one of the biggest issues with BIAB is redundancy / unwanted and unneeded complexity that comes with maintaining obsolete and unfinished features. Previous pickers are perfect example of that. Another (from newer ones) is F8 vs Alt F8. When Alt+F8 was introduced, it should have been completed with a few remaining tools of F8, and F8 put to rest and replaced by non-modal version. There quite a few examples of that nature. New MTP Library is a big step in the right direction, given several known issues are fixed, it is pretty much complete. Why carry all the weight and scare new customers with all other pickers?
-----------------------------------------------

The point of this thread is to identify shortcomings (if any) of new MTP Library compared to all previous pickers and have constructive discussion pointing developers making right decisions based of user wants/needs, not on hypothesis of what "might" happen. That is their job to worry about programming.

I like that goal a lot more than the thread's title "Please remove all previous pickers."

Software coding , fixing the software for new users, redundancy, and other coding issues aside, what's the operation issue if any?

Old habits die hard for some. I think that the simplest solution is to keep the current buttons in place, but redirect them all to the appropriate tabs in the new Multi-Picker.

JJJ,
As soon as those issues are identified and addressed, it's my wish for previous pickers to be GONE - GOODBYE!... and thank you for your service.
-----
Charlie,
new users are scared by unneeded complexity. "Operation issue" is an issue! I I don't believe that accumulating old code and maintaining about 30% of useless menus is a "good thing". Bugs, user confusion, should I continue or you know what I will say next? We (humanoids) are not robots to keep memorizing redundant multiple ways of doing one thing & unorthodox workarounds. Likely some find joy in it. Not me.

Honestly, I'm just taking a bit of a breather. I had high hopes for this update but, while everyone else seems happy, I'm completely unenthusiastic with it.
I need to calm down a bit before I hate on it too much so that I can post my thoughts in a less angered manner.

Fwiw, I am absolutely 100% behind your idea to remove unnecessary items and I'd take that a lot further than just the pickers. I just don't want this to happen unless the alternatives are as good, preferably better.

I'm quite clearly the odd one out who despises putting anything behind unnecessary mouse clicks. Compare the previous realtracks picker to the one in the multipicker and a whole bunch of stuff, which was right there on the page, is now behind more clicks.

I'm impatient and I want everything to happen and be accessible as quickly and easily as possible. This isn't normal DAW type software, as we all agree. I don't know how others use it but I use it as an ideas pad where I can trial things quickly without multiple clicks and drop down menus when they aren't needed. It wasn't quite so bad in the past but now we have so much to choose from we can spend a long time trialing and regenerating many many times over. This should be click listen, not click click menu sub-menu search click click listen.

Add to that we have a search and filter that is almost pointless - nothing new there, it's been that way forever but it's just becoming annoying now. What often takes half an hour should be able to do in minutes.

I will post more about my frustrations but like I say, I just need to take a breath so that I don't unintentionally offend anyone.

Lee,
Ohh it will take quite a lot to offend me Please don't worry about that.

New Multipicker Library is far better than everything what we had before. Sure, it does have a few known issues, hopefully they are fixed in no time.
You mentioned "number of clicks". Take your time pinpoint exactly where you need more clicks and write it here when you are ready.
Filtering it seems the same as with previous pickers, and while I am not in "love" with it, it works as expected. We would all benefit from "nested" filtering, but that is good topic for another thread.
----------
You mentioned:
"I don't know how others use it but I use it as an ideas pad where I can trial things quickly without multiple clicks"
Me too. And new 2024 version is better than anything that we had before. I am a bit sick now, but I will record a better video when I get better. Meanwhile, please watch my short clip. Maybe it will give you some ideas of workflow using new MTP Library:
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=788290#Post788290

I'm sure it is better. I'm just a bit deflated and also not had much time to play around. The first thing I did was test out partial regen for drums (one of the main reasons I upgraded) only to find out it doesn't work. With that I gave up and will try again when I'm more inspired to try again. I'll give your video a watch. Thanks

Another great candidate to be (mercilessly) eliminated would be the (now) obsolete, redundant and ugly Track Settings and Actions window (CTRL + F7).

While I support the idea of removing things to streamline the program, mightn't this have the potential to impact significantly on the effectiveness of the community of helpers in the Windows/Mac forums, etc?

For example, if someone has a problem with BIAB 2016 (say) and I ask them to describe the process they go through that causes the problem, I can presently re-create their actions step by step (mostly). If things change too much, though, that would not be possible. Similarly, if I give a set of diagrams and step-by-step instructions on how to solve a problem, those solutions would be based on my current version of BIAB and if the change between my version and a user's version is too great, my solutions would have limited value.

Explanation-type problems that arise due to a lack of consistency between versions can already be seen in some posts in the "Tips and Tricks" forum where present versions of BIAB don't have an exact relationship with past versions.

For example, the below set of instructions regarding plugins is relevant to BIAB 2018.

https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=451623#Post451623

The system is now completely different. If a user of BIAB 2018 had a plugin problem, solving it becomes much harder if the solutions are based on BIAB 2024 as the reference version.

Ahh, Noel,
It is absurd thinking and philosophy that those who spend their hard earned money yearly, supporting progress should suffer from redundancy and unnecessary complexity that "possibly" can occur for somebody who doesn't (support the progress and PGM music in general).

Out of good will, and simply because you are a nice person, you can surely help someone who for one reason or another didn't upgrade IN YEARS but make everyone else suffer for those reasons is flawed thinking in every possible way.

Sorry Noel, I feel this one belongs to: doing good deeds on other peoples backs.

Since I agree with both Noel and Misha maybe the answer would be an either or option, much like control T for the GUI? Maybe even tie the old picker to the old GUI? Or have it a separate option?

Just my two cents.

But it seems to me that all the functionalities of the previous selectors are not included in the MP? I've noticed several over time. Which means no, it's not a good idea.

Mario,
I think you are confusing backward compatibility vs redundancy and simply outdated features.
I do understand the need for older GUI as some people's vision degrades with age and big buttons are something that they are more comfortable with,
but something like new MTP Library, which makes things so much easier in every way and has everything that older picker offered with same familiar layout, I simply don't see a single valid argument to keeping those which makes program more confusing than it already is.

---------

MoultiPass
"But it seems to me that all the functionalities of the previous selectors are not included in the MP?"

What is that you are missing? Explain. Just throwing words out mean little. I am asking, because if you are "missing" something, you argument should look like: I om Ok with request If A and B is added from X Y pickers, otherwise No.

That way we can make those specific requests to PGM and try to persuade a change of making program cleaner, instead of more cluttered with redundant and outdated items.

I'm just showing you the old Rt selector. I use each of these buttons. In the MP you have to look for them in the right-click submenus. If you hide all the options in right clicks, people will no longer use them and we will lose freedom. Right click or buttons, the most meaningful for me is the button.Why make it complicated? If you only use the new one, that's up to you. But don't penalize others.

Moultipass,
so the "missing" functions are there, and not missing (per your initial post) except for convenience of several buttons that you are personally (and likely few other users) are used to?
Correct?

I don't agree with your "penalize others" comment. I think it is far more damaging to software and ultimately users leaving huge chunks of redundant code just to satisfy a few "convenient" buttons. Instead of trying to formalin specimens, put forward idea(s) how to make new MTP library better - to suit your needs. In my view many popular, well supported ideas from this section of the forum do make it to yearly release.

Removing old / outdated / redundant GUI elements is all about simplifyng the GUI, simplify documentation, simplify software manteinance, reduce bugs, reduce clutter, avoid confusion for new users, improve consistence between GUI elements, improve ease of use and enhance user experience.

I don't really see any strong reason to maintain those old, outdated pickers, but I do see many benefits for the program if the developers decide to remove them.

I agree - remove the old reduntant stuff from the GUI.
I have not found any functions in the old menus that are not also available in the new Multipicker.
If the old stuff is kept, then the gui will never improve just become more cluttered.
One of the more confusing things I know is when the same function appears in several places.
It makes me wonder why? Is there something that differs between these functions in these places?
I have never seen any other software that keeps the old gui stuff when improving the gui.

I think it is absolutely obvious that we are heading straight towards this simplification, which will take time since everything is nested in Biab and each action can be done in 3 different ways. I simply noticed that with a release on 5/12, asking for such a deletion on 6 could cause some users a form of frustration. But you would really have to be blind not to imagine that we are necessarily going to simplify the whole thing.

"But you would really have to be blind not to imagine that we are necessarily going to simplify the whole thing."
Consider me blind. I see all previous pickers as absolutely unneeded complexity that will confuse most users, especially new ones and is a feature creep clutter. And not a hint from developers that these will be retired.

P.S. MoultiPass, I am not sure if you had been reading any external posts (outside PG music forum) by people that had tried BIAB. I've put in a lot of hours just reading these posts over last 5 years, of folks with very different needs/uses of the program. One of the top issues people voice is clutter and complexity.

The reason we took the trouble to learn Biab is because there is a little something magical about this program that no other has. The criticisms about the outdated graphics and the famous learning curve are true, but don't stop me from using it every day.

So what? Destroy everything and redo a version from scratch? Are we really trying to attract more people (make more money) by satisfying fans of modern design? As the Beatles said, it's just a group of friends having a good time. I remain in this artisanal spirit, but I know that one day everything will change, perhaps for the better.
We understand of course all these people who suffer to get the nectar out of Biab, and the criticisms are at the level. I don't read them anymore, they all say the same thing, an old program for old people who are afraid of change. I don't pay attention to it anymore. The major advances of recent years suggest new possibilities.

MoultiPass,
Sure, trade your car/bus for a horse, throw away your cell phone and get a rotary dial one or just carry one with you in case you "might need it". Computers, who needs them? Calculator will do just fine! Should I go on?

Destroy everything? This is not what I am saying. I am saying it is a good time and opportunity to get rid of redundant features that have no functional value. "Modern design" has nothing to do with my request. That is another topic. I don't think it is good for a software to have a paperweight features that do nothing more but add clutter and invite more bugs and other issues. I don't see anything good or positive in that philosophy.

Which report ? I leave you this thread, I said what I had to say. THANKS.

There are still some things that need sorting:

When I first start the MultiPicker it takes 30 secs to open.
I can't see a rebuild button in the RealTracks it seems to use the Style rebuild that takes ages even if set on "Quick".
How many times do you put this off until you are force to run it:




Then after waiting 30sec you choose the Drum tab and you have to wait again:

I vote to remove the old picker since new one has designed to work better.

Rustyspoon#
You have had your say, now leave it alone and let the people who know the situation, (Dr Gannon and the programmers) work out the best approach and timing, do their thing, please.

Keith

I think it's a Ctrl+T scenario, once users get used to the new way they don't use the old anymore, but each one to his own time, they can't be pushed if not ready.
I remember suggesting a multipicker years n years n years ago then Rusty also suggested this, this is a good step.

I keep an old exe of different versions for support.
Look at the new Tracks view, so many didn't want it to become a "DAW" but with all those Util tracks and the Track window that horse has bolted, it's a great improvement appreciated by so many users. The thing is you can still just use Audio Edit and the Piano Roll and hide the extra UTil tracks and Tracks window.

Things have to move ahead, look at the BiabVST now in Reaper, instantaneous !! I had to show that working for ages with so much code, pics and videos with like near zero interest or support from most maybe due to not understanding ??? and saying that most users have old computers with old hardware so Biab has to be limited and can not progress because of this, but you can see plainly now it working in action in the BiabVST (there is still more to do like playing the track data direct in the BiabVST (so other DAWs can enjoy the speed) and have all the code in the VST that I will most likely have to now do also to show that working as there still seems to be some resistance to that. ), you can see Riff Edit now in the Tracks window giving way more control the same as I showed in Reaper with the RT/RD sections.
So much of this stuff that is now implemented I showed years n years n years ago, so it is still way behind of where it could of been by now

Dear Keith,
That is nice that you are trying to be a "moderator", but kindly don't try to silence me. If you are against my wish / request, say exactly why. So if this is considered by Peter and his crew (one way or another) they will at least know the true reasons why some people want to keep redundant features.
and make necessary adjustments if they feel it is important enough to justify. That is the point of this thread, to have a discussion.
So far I have read 2 valid reasons:
One by Moultipass - that has to do with convenience of few buttons being upfront.
And what, if I am thinking this right, Musocity and also Mario is trying to say, is for people to get used to it.

You are welcome to present your view, or if I missed something besides the two above from this thread that are worth considering.

--------------------------------------------

Musocity, new MTP library takes less than 3 seconds to open for me. Switching tabs less then 2. Something is not right in your setup....

I like it as they are not hassling me LOL I remember some not wanting you in Beta because "you would want to change things" after I suggested you should be added to beta testing because of your knowledge.

This is first run:



This is once running:

My vote was/is leave it alone until the bugs are worked out then remove the unneeded dialogs. Leave them for now because removing them prematurely may make it difficult/impossible to do certain things. But ultimately, Misha is absolutely right; when you improve things you should not leave the old things in place!

Misha, I originally was against removing the old pickers. After using the multipicker for a couple of weeks I am changing my opinion. I agree that the old pickers should be removed.

See you can teach an old dog new tricks!

To summarize, so far 3 specific reasons were mentioned against removing older pickers for now:

1) Moultipass - that has to do with convenience of few buttons being upfront.
2)What, if I am thinking this right, Musocity meant, is for people to get used to it.
3) And by JJJ (which I also agree on)-leave it alone until the bugs are worked out then remove the unneeded dialogs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Best case scenario, if considered by PGM, this could be done in a few months until they iron out reported bugs with MTP Library. My realistic hope that it will be done in 2025 version, by the end of 2024.

I encourage anyone who will post / or cast a vote in this thread "against", please provide specific reasons why, even if they are repeats of the three mentioned above.
Thank you.

What time does yours take when you first start Biab compared to already running ? (see my pics above)
Have you got the RealTrack/Drums on C:\ or external USB 3 hard drive ?
What version are you using (amount of RT/RDs) ?
I have the USB 3 Audiophile and on first run it's taking all that time reading the Audiophile drive as it's light is flashing.
It should not have to read the folders if it has already been rebuilt and has a text database.

Mine is also very fast 1-2 seconds.
Same test as above.
BIAB is on an internal SSD drive same as C: but separate partition.

There is a time difference between initial open and next open due to it being loaded in memory.
There's also a huge difference if you're loading from a slower supplied hard disk or from a much faster M2 disk.

I have not benchmarked this against older pickers in the same scenario first time or on a slow disk.

By 100% agree with the OP that old methods to do the same thing should be removed. That's the definition of Bloat.
I also realized that there's a few minor tweaks to the multi picker to make it a little smoother in terms of Workflow and I'm beginning to adopt a new thought about this.

So based off of where the library is sitting and A couple of workflow scenarios there is arguments to keep both methods.
I use a method that matches with my workflow and thus totally avoid all redundancy. The custom toolbar.
In order to Sideline this debate for another day I'm beginning to believe that a very simple and quick solution that PGM could do would be to supply startup templates that match the user's needs.

NEXT PATCH RELEASE
1) Fill out the custom With the F7 multi picker which by the way is a toggle and the Track View, which is also a toggle with the Chord view, this gives an entry level person 90% of what they need.

Before they disappear and go into hibernation for the Mac version:
2) When speed and a few minor improvements to the F7 are ready then either remove or make it extremely hard to find the other pickers.

MULTI PICKER LIBRARY IIMPROVEMENTS:

EASY:
1) A set of options for the multi picker
- Auto fill time signature, feel, tempo range so every time you open it up it matches your current style. (New to 2024 is the actual style options in the filters)
- Just like the DAW mode button which greatly changes the behavior and required a RED FLAG, to let you know that you are in DAW (stay on top) mode, The option to use the existing chord chart which is currently buried under the options is way too dangerous if you inadvertently are on the wrong track or don't realize that you're wiping out entire styles or entire tracks with it on. There should be a RED FLAG somewhere on the multi picker that lets you in this mode versus demo from the Internet mode perhaps just a small red button that toggles. It needs to be extremely convenient and obvious.

MORE WORK:
The multi-picker should have a background thread that loads it into memory, so the initial opening is instantaneous.

The Style Picker Rebuild to Rebuild RealTracks takes 100 secs on Fast.
So I added a Rebuild button in the RT picker and now it's fast again !

Maybe its not an either/or binary choice: Just put in preferences a checkbox to include or exclude the old pickers, so everyone is happy.

Yep. That's what several of us recommended in testing. It is more like how such improvements have been handled in the past by PG Music.

A few testers wanted to make the cold turkey change, which I respect because it would be better eventually if everyone used the same method. That will make answering questions easier. But for now, I support the option/checkbox.

Well this exactly why most negative things are said about BIAB. Because of redundancy, un needed complexity and clutter. Why?
Because some people don't embrace change, threatening to stop upgrading, etc., instead of making constructive suggestions & comments. And most of us, I will stress it again: MOST of us suffer from endless bugs and unfinished features, specifically because attention is diverted from progress to keeping obsolete features, menus, buttons, functions, workflows on "life support".

Matt,
Yes, having all redundant pickers hidden by default will reduce clutter, but will it reduce bugs? As code will have to be maintained. Not kept, but maintained re-tested constantly with changes & updates. Fixed. So yes, better than nothing. I guess JJJ and Audiotrack are right, about keeping them for transitional period and then bye bye.

So far there are 3 REAL reasons voiced.

1)Moultipass - that has to do with convenience of few buttons being upfront.
2) Lee- (from another post) - an option for MTP to stay on "top"
3)People get used to it - transition period.

Please, those who casts their voice "against", kindly cite specific issues, bugs or limitations that you are having with MTP Library (that are absent from legacy picker(s))
Thank you.

FWIW, I personally very much doubt that PGM will do anything about this until the 2025 version.

They will therefore have a year in which to assess user reactions to the MultiPicker, to smooth out the wrinkles, oversights and bugs. It'll give users time to learn it and get used to it. I personally hope that they will then retire and remove the various older pickers.

I use Ctrl+T for the modern compact view if I hit Ctrl+T again it goes to the old complexed cluttered view and I got to get back quickly as there is just way too much to process.
The new Picker is great it just needs a few things sorted like a Rebuild RTs button so you don't have to do a MultiRebuild that take 100 secs. So I think once we get comfortable with the new Picker there would be no going back.
As I have said many times you can have old versions running alongside the latest, so if you want the new content but not the new features just use an old version and you will have the old pickers.

bbw64.exe
bbw64 - 1013.exe
bbw64 - 927.exe

Here's over a decade's worth running, let's time travel:

I think Gordon is correct and I’m fine with that timetable. I didn’t say the old pickers had to stay forever.

No user here gets to dictate how others prefer to work nor how fast they are forced to learn a new method. And no user here gets to tell me what I consider to be REAL is not real to me.

If I were in the middle of a serious project, and it involved headaches for me to find my way around BIAB when I needed to concentrate elsewhere, I would want the option to delay adopting the new picker. In fact, that would be a good argument not to upgrade at all.

Matt,
How about if we flip tables with this view:
By favoring workflow of few at cost of hundreds (or more?)... What I mean is, how many people didn't upgrade because of redundant features left in place multiplied menus, strange ways of doing simple things that got them confused, etc., and they just gave up and never looked PGM direction again? To be perfectly honest, I am concerned about that group.

If you are referring to me: "No user here gets to dictate how others prefer to work nor how fast they are forced to learn a new method"
That is not true. All I want from users who cast -1, to be constructive and say specifically why they disagree. So the reasons are clear and developers are not trying to catch a black cat in a dark room.

Having said that, I do agree with Gordon, JJJ, Trevor and others on transitional period. I think a year should be plenty to weight in on requests, opinions, shortcomings and bugs, but ultimately it's for PGM to decide. My "quest" if you prefer, is to bring all concerns / discussion to one place.

Consolidated MTP Library is on of the best additions/improvements to BIAB world in years. So far, relatively small points/requests were voiced... which is a good thing

I’m glad you find the timetable acceptable. We do want the same eventual goal.

I think the example in your first paragraph is not closely enough related to be justification for this proposal. I could be wrong but I suspect there is no way to prove it either way.

Matt,
it's a known fact, that probably the biggest drawback of BIAB (for new users) is complexity. Much of that complexity comes from various redundant segments left in software that contribute to expansion of extra menus, semi-obsolete functions and of course bugs. PGM, it seems, leaving most of such items as a safeguard for those users that might need time to adopt, but then "adaptation" period lingers forever. I believe Peter and team done a great job of re-creating familiar way of picker operation in MTP, but leaving all other pickers indefinitely would be strange at best. Like trading a donkey for a car, but then refusing to give up donkey, buckling him on back seat to ride along, to keep company...

While PGM rarely asks for feedback, I believe this thread is optimal opportunity to discuss this among users and come to some form of general consensus, giving PGM a glimpse of specific issues customers are faced with. I feel a year should be more than enough to gather such feedback and make certain changes to MTP Library, so it becomes a central content hub, retiring obsolete items and making software more consistent...for everybody.

All the old pickers are jails, when you get use to being in a jail for a long time it can get pretty scary to get out of that jail into a free non jail environment.

Unfortunately there is some truth to that.

Just remove it, no need to wait, the new MTP is straight forward and intuitive.

I have never seen any other software where they keep the old menues/gui after they have launched an improvement to the gui when all the old functions are available in the new gui.

If one need to get used to it more why not take some time and make a small test project and set it up with the old picker and then do exactly the same with the new picker and take some notes to remember. As long as the old picker is available there is a risk one never moves over to the new MTP.

I do worry a bit that the extent to which they do this may be an indication that they have long since lost full understanding of the program and are afraid to remove anything in case it breaks things. I hope I'm wrong, or if I'm not, that at least they're working gradually to resolve that.

I would like to keep both as it is .
Eg I would miss the options in "other" from the old and much of the way it is set up.
I can´t find headline filter for the versions of Xtra PAK and 2024 etc in the new "other"
At times Im most interested in what is the newest.

Enter xtra pak in the filter string then sort by set #, see pic:

That is the key point it is all there. Here in lies the deeper issue. Right click on some media and up pops not the new picker, not the old picker, but some variation of a version of a picker. There is a butt load of pickers that do a variety of different thing, but all of it can be done with the new picker. We just need a detailed video to explain how!

I don't want the cold turkey removal of the old pickers just yet, but we can hasten their demise with a detailed video Rob just requested, and then some well-timed posts in support of using the new multipicker.

I did not know there was as much inconsistency as Rob mentions.

I don't understand why my favorite "Load Demo" button is now under a boring right click. Who was this button bothering? I use it all the time, I like loading demos and arranging them, it's my thing.

MoultiPass,
was there a dedicated button to load demo in jailed picker before?

Yes this favorite button was right at the bottom of the style page. And the block next to it worked perfectly, to test one style or another.
Now it's over. Any listen with double click or something else, and you can no longer find your original song.

But I understand that you've never used it, that's why you've never seen it?

MoultiPass,
I agree, it's an important button that can be located upfront, so +1

So far we have two specific comments from you (including this one) + and one from Lee. Correct?

+1 I agree. Please, put it back

OK. Thanks Mario, BUT there is still much better overview via the old "other" menu.
I even would like it to contain "show only PRO styles"