PG Music Home Forums PG Music Product Forums Band-in-a-Box for Windows BUG: BIAB does not work properly with non-US keyboards

This is a bug that existed in 2010 and still exists in 2010.5:


I have 2 machines - one with a German keyboard, the other one has a UK keyboard.

On both machines, I cannot simply enter # into the chord sheet. BIAB treats any keyboard layout as US layout, turning # into backslash.

But this only happens if I type directly into the sheet, such that the chord is shown in the tiny text area below the Style button.

If I press Ctrl+F2 to edit the chord in place, keyboard input works properly.


I allready reported this to support@pgmusic.com several times, but I am really disappointed now cause they keep suggesting work arounds like "use the chord builder" or "use shift+3" to enter # (which normally is £ on my UK keyboard and § on my German keyboard).

They finally asked me to place an "improvement request" to the forum, so I did.

But I would not call it an "improvement request", but a BUG REPORT.

Come on! Every other windows app is able to deal with different keyboard layouts because all they have to do is to use the correct API provided by the operating system. Looks like BIAB uses some non-standard way to access the keyboard.

Have you tried just typing a "3" (not shift-3)? On US keyboards, you don't actually have to type Shift-3, you can just type the 3 to get the sharp character. I don't know if this works on UK or German keyboards, but it's worth a try.

Have a look here and you'll hopefully understand, why typing a "3" or "shift+3" is nothing but another nasty workaround:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KB_Germany.svg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KB_United_Kingdom.svg

Even the GERMAN version of BIAB suffers from this bug!

Hi, Andi -

Remember, this is a user forum (although PGMusic folks step in every so often). So all you're going to get from us is a workaround until the problem is fixed. But at least you're not dead in the water; you can still enter the sharp using the "3" key. And you did the right thing by reporting it to PGMusic; they're the only ones that can fix it.

Hi Andi

If you look at the PDF manual page 107 it clearly states press key 3 for a sharp.

I also use a UK keyboard and it works exactly as described in the manual. If your keyboard cannot produce a sharp by pressing 3 you may have another issue, but I don't think its BAIB.

Glen

The core of the software was written in some programming language that was not supported on Macs until a recent change by them to a 'sort of' open operating system. The original software ran on Atari machines. What seems simple to you as far as writing software may be limited by the core functionality of the original kernel.

When something seems easy to the end user to accomodate and it does not happen it is due to complexity or some other constraint..

I suggest posting on the German language forum. They may have a workaround. As for me a utility I use to remap keys (shareware) was how I dealt with the software when my keyboard was in french.

I suggest exploring remapping keys.

I also suggest that all my machines have a toggle to put up the french keyboard or click click, English Canadian keyboard...

I'm sorry you think of this as UGLY workarounds. Perhaps you are entitled to the iron clad money back guarantee and can avail yourself of the return of the project so you don't blow a fuse.

This is after all the users forum, not the official pg music support forum. For that find the email addresses, either support or sales.

Hi andi.k,

I guess it depends on how you look at it.

To me, it is just as legitimate to assign the "3" key for a sharp as it is to assign a "B" key for a flat. The "#' sign on the keyboard is not the musical sharp. It's just coincidental that the "number sign" mark (which I have also seen called a hash-mark and a pound sign) and the "sharp sign" are very similar in appearance. I have always understood the the horizontal lines on the sharp sign are drawn diagonally upwards whereas on the number sign, they are parallel to the ground.

Regards,
Noel
.

All I wanted to _state_ was, that there is a BUG in BIAB regarding different keyboard layouts and all I wanted to _hear_ is "yes, you're right, bug confirmed, will be fixed in next release."

And as I said in my first post, the reason for this thread is: PG support asked me to post it to the forums. I don't know why they didn't simply tell me that they filed the BUG and will fix it in the next release.


I must be from a different planet.

Please tell me: Where is the logic in having the text area below the style button behave differently than the rest of the application?

Did you read my posts? I actually CAN enter #, but only when pressing Ctrl+F2 on a chord, not when quick-entering chords by simply typing.

Atari... that's a piece of history. After almost 20 years, it's time for legacy code cleanup, IMHO.

Key remapping? Can be had for free with Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator. I used it to make my UK-Keyboard enter Umlauts like ä,ö,ü by pressing Alt-Gr+a,o,u, but..... I don't really want to remap the #-key to 3...

And sure, # is not a real sharp, but why does BIAB show #'s in the lead sheet? Hm... maybe because there is no ASCII-code for a real sharp sign...

Pressing the 3-key without Shift will enter a 3, not a sharp. BIAB converts the 3 into sharp after pressing enter. But that's a different thing.

3 does not look like a sharp. # does. And # is used as a sharp in almost every other application I remember down to the Microsoft DOS times.

The only reason for having 3 behaving like sharp is: convenience for users with US-Keyboards.

Second: why not support the #-key when there is one?

All of this could be easily achived if BIAB would use standard keyboard access like many other windows applications.


And - I am repeating myself here - but this keyboard issue also occures with the Ear Training Games, which are hard-coded to US layout, too. Thus, I have to press Z instead of Y on a German keyboard in order to trigger the lowest C-note. I reported this half a year ago, but it has not been fixed yet.


For a Software Company with international sales, proper localization (in terms of keyboard layout, not interface language) of their products is a must have, not a "feature".

Just imagine Microsoft Word hard-coded to US-Layout....

Thanks Bob!! So it was my fault to post in the wrong forum... Sorry for that! (No irony here! I just overlooked that subforum...)

John: I did not mean to offend anybody, but now I understand what made this discussion escalate: most of you are long-time-users of BIAB who are acustommed to every of it's quirks. I'm not. I just stepped in at version 2010 and there have been many situations where the BIAB did not act as expected. Many times I tried shortcuts which I have become accustomed to from other applications, running into trouble. But I do not want to start another "the interface is cluttered, outdated, non-standard and hard to learn for new customers"-thread here. I knew that prior to buying it and I know that there is no real alternative to BIAB despite a real band of professional musicians that's available 24/7. But the interface keeps being a pain.

There are other issues like songs with real tracks getting messed up / corrupted, such that I have to reenter everything, or when working on a lead sheet, suddenly a bunch of actions gets undone or replaced - without any reason - and I have to redo them, but these things only occure when heavily working with the program and they are hard to reproduce and thus I cannot simply report them because I do not know what to report, except "there are bugs in it".

All I want to do is music and I think I am with you here, but these obstacles sometimes kill my motivation.

On the other hand - you are right that PGMusic is very responsive and very busy adding new features and wishes. But IMHO, priority should lie on stability and usability of the core features, because this is, what new customers primarily step at when working into the program.

Hi, Andi -

No offense taken. Just didn't know if you realized this was just the user forum. And I agree that your problems with the keyboard should be fixed. But for now, it is what it is.

And feel free to ask questions if you are having problems, because there are a lot of long-time users here who can probably help you out.

Make more music...

Hi Andi.k. I just wanted to acknowledge that you've posted your keyboard observation in the BIAB Wishlist forum; that's good. PG Music really does pay attention to suggestions there, and I've even had some of mine implemented. Also, the first reactions of new users are always very informative.

I'm sure you know this, but just in case, it's worth pointing out to new forum posters: the labels ascribed to each of us are not of our choosing. John's, for example, is Team PG - Journeyman. It only has to do with post count and is assigned automatically. We are all end-users here, except for the occasional PG Music employee (including Peter Gannon himself) who clearly identify themselves as such.

Hi andi.k,

I'm glad things got sorted out for you.

Quote:

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And sure, # is not a real sharp, but why does BIAB show #'s in the lead sheet?

---

If you're interested, here's a link to a Wikipedia article on the number sign.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_sign

I had a look at BIAB's lead-sheet. I entered a few sharp chords in the key of F#. I noticed that the correct sharp symbol appears in the key signature (from a music-based font, I presume) but the number sign appears in the chords above the lead-sheet. It makes it easy to see the difference between the two signs. It also made we wonder why the music font wasn't used for the chord symbols. Interesting.

Regards,
Noel

Try switching to jazz fonts.

As to mapped keyboards, we used an Avid system for video editing at work. The software was only available on ONE platform, and the keyboard was remapped when the software started. You needed a 'dongle' in the usb port to run it. You had no latitude at all. You either bought their Dell systems that were tweaked to run the software or nothing.

I remember being indignant that we spent 28k on a computer and software, but it worked 100 percent of the time, and although it took all night to burn a cd and we had 12 burners running on it, it did the job.

I always remapped keys on my own systems to speed things up. It's so easy to do. I just looked at all the keys I had and decided, I never touch that key. got out a piece of paper and went 'to town.' On the bottom keyboard the first 3 keys beside the shift key I never used. In fact, I learned to type on an Underwood manual then Electric, and keys on a keyboard that were not on a typewriter I seldom use at all, unless I hunt and peck them.

I've also learned that life deals you certain cards. You might not like them. But they are yours. I just lost 3 months of my life to a fight with cancer. I slept most of that, and 12 days in the hospital. Now I'm 1/2 deaf, cannot speak at all, and am 60 pounds lighter. I was outside today and it was 33C and I was wearing a sweater and coat. I can't eat, have a gastric tube and infusion machine.

Then I come on here and see something so trivial apparently driving someone up the wall and say to myself, that person should get a grip. Sorry. No offense meant. It's all trivial pursuit. And I also am still on a lot of narcotics. There's no upside to the drugs, but lots of downside. Ok so I have no idea I'm on narcotics, but I know when they run out.