PG Music Home Forums PG Music Product Forums Band-in-a-Box for Windows Problem importing and exporting MIDI files with lyrics for use with Synth V, Reaper, etc. [Resolved]

I recently wrote to PG support explaining that the import MIDI dialog has "include lyrics" but it doesn't work. A MIDI file with lyrics will not import lyrics in BIAB using this checkbox. Likewise you cannot export a MIDI file (with lyrics) from BIAB.

Clearly, because of the checkbox, BIAB presumes to already have the feature of handling lyrics in a MIDI file, a capability possessed by dozens of other programs (Studio One, Reaper, Sibelius, Musescore, Synthezer V, and so forth.) MIDI protocol has a place where lyrics are expected to be, and while other programs seem to recognize this, something is missing in BIAB, and so it is not able to freely work in interchange with these other programs, which I would like to do.

Anyway, after an exchange of emails, tech support suggested I put the issue in the Wishlist. I wrote back and said "As I understand it, a Wishlist is for new features not currently in the program. I didn't think it was for features currently assumed to be in the program but not working, ie a bug."

So is it a legitimate entry in the wishlist to say "I wish you would fix this bug?" Shouldn't there be another way to report such things in a reliable standard way? I was hoping to get an answer to a workaround to the issue, or at least an admission that the feature doesn't work and they will work on it. (Or at least remove the checkbox which implies they have the feature.)

I love BIAB and tech support is very quick to respond, so I am not complaining, but just wonder if others have had problems with not understanding this distinction.

I guess it depends who you get. I messaged them a few weeks ago asking when partial regeneration for realdrums would be working. I was told it's not possible for realdrums, so had to point out it was being sold as a new feature for the 2024 version ... which didn't work
Thankfully I think it's been fixed in the 1108 update.

You are correct.
A bug is when the software claims to have the ability but does not produce the expected results.
A Feature Request as more commonly called in the software world, is when you expected it to work a certain way, but it doesn't meet your expectations, however the developer coded it to work a slightly different way from your expectations. So, a feature request or wish list as they call it here is in alignment with your expectations and the developer's expectations.

The support person should have recorded it as a bug.

But give the exact steps here so that people can confirm your bug

Description:

Steps to reproduce:
1)
2)
etc.
Expected results:

Actual Results:

I'm not following the original post. BIAB will open a midi file with lyrics. That's what the Big Lyrics page is all about.

The post from Charlie is why we need you to document the exact steps.

I do agree with your definitions.

I also agree with your definitions. As jpettit and Matt said, please give us the exact steps to see if others can replicate the problem

OK, here is a step-by-step report:

Goal: to exchange midi files with lyrics in and out of BIAB with other programs that involve lyrics, such as Synthesizer V, Sibelius, Musescore, Studio One, etc.

DOWNLOAD TWO TEST FILES ATTACHED File 1 is a BIAB file with note-based lyrics. File 2 is a standard MIDI file with lyrics.

Experiment 1:
1- Open file 2 in any program that handles lyrics with MIDI (except BIAB) and you will see that the lyrics appear correctly.
2- Import file 2 into BIAB and you will not get the lyrics, even if you check the option to “include lyrics.”

Experiment 2:
1- Open file 1 in BIAB and see the melody track notation has the note-based lyrics correctly attached to each note.
2- Export the file out of BIAB as MIDI, and open it in any other program that handles lyrics with MIDI.
3- You will not find lyrics were exported by BIAB. In almost all programs the BIAB MIDI has notes and nothing else. In one program only, Sibelius, the lyrics from BIAB are printed as staff text, which shows that BIAB is putting lyrics in the wrong MIDI place for most programs to recognize.

Experiment 3:
1) As a workaround, export File 1 from BIAB as music XML instead of MIDI.
2) Open the XML in Sibelius and you will find that the BIAB note-based-lyrics are now exported correctly, and in the right place. Studio One will not even open a BIAB XML file, and Synthesizer V does not have XML import, but you can use Sibelius as a bridge, exporting the BIAB XML file to Sibelius, then saving it as MIDI in Sibelius, then import in Synthesizer V and you finally get the lyrics all the way from BIAB to Synthesizer V in a cumbersome three-stage process.
3) If you don’t own Sibelius, you can use the free online xml converter at https://sdercolin.github.io/utaformatix3/ and convert the file to Synthesizer V format, and that also works.

Experiment 3 shows a promising workaround for half the problem, ie getting lyrics OUT of BIAB into Synthesizer V. It also shows that BIAB seems to know what are lyrics, because they put them in the right place in XML, but it doesn’t know how to place them correctly in MIDI.

Experiment 4: trying to get Lyrics INTO BIAB, using the checkbox “include lyrics”
1) All experiments fail, either using XML or MIDI

It is important to get lyrics in and out of BIAB in both directions. This is not a trivial issue for a growing number of users of Synthesizer V. It has one of the longest threads and active discussions on VI Control, and many are keen to incorporate BIAB in their workflow, especially after I posted two examples of using BIAB to automatically generate vocal melodies to be sung by Synthesizer V here.




Both the above tracks were made instantaneously by letting BIAB generate the harmonies for the vocals (as well as the backing.) But I had to re-type all the lyrics into Synthesizer V if I wanted to go back and forth between BIAB.

Conclusion: BIAB needs to both IMPORT and EXPORT lyrics in its MIDI files, preferably without the need to use XML as an intermediate bridge.

Perhaps I am doing something wrong and someone knows how I can do this already?

Hi Thomas, excellent points that you have raised, but I was more amazed at your five-part harmony song, with matching lyrics. Sensational and humorous to boot

What voices are you using with Synthesizer V?

For this issue, of course, it doesn't matter which voices are used, but to know which ones I have, they are Women - Natalie, Solaria, Sheena, Mai, and Men - Hayden, Kevin, Jun, Asterian.

In the examples above I only used Hayden and Kevin for the 5-part harmony, and only Hayden, Kevin, Solaria and Natalie for "You Are My Sunshine." For a bigger choir sound I use all the singers I have on different parts. For example here is an arrangement I made using all the singers in the same track:

Synth V Choir - Can't Help Falling in Love

Yes, thanks was just curious as I have been thinking about buying a few.
Thanks
Just had a chance to listen to your last song and it sounds like you have really mastered that tool!
Your song should be on synth V's website.
So obviously you recommend it?
Good Job!

Women [/u]
- Natalie,
- Solaria,
- Sheena,
-Mai, and
Men
- Hayden,
-Kevin, -
Jun,-
-Asterian.

Which two do you recommend getting started?

Thanks for providing the step by step instructions, I've tried to replicate, here are my results:

Confirmed. If I open file 2 into BIAB I can see the lyrics, but if I import the midi file into an existing projetc, lyrics wont be imported.

I cannot replicate. If I export file as MIDI and open that MIDi file, that is what I get in Musescore 4:


Other MIDI players (for example the old vanbasco karaoke player) work also fine.

Confirmed, this is what I get after opening the XML file with Musescore 4 (the melody should be on the piano track, but I had to export all tracks, because otherwise the results were still worst):


Anyway, exporting to mxml has never worked properly for me.

Not sure about this. Could you please elaborate?

Edit: btw, very funny demos, those vocal sytnhs sound impressive, and the chord prorgression is great too. Congratulations!

Thanks for the files. I completed Experiment 1 and didn't encounter any issue with BIAB displaying the lyrics.

I don't use exterior midi programs or XML files so I made no attempt to export with lyrics and didn't do the other three experiments. Sorry. I don't have any program to test these.

Thank you Cerio and Charlie,

Based on your investigations, here is what has been discovered:

1) There is a difference between IMPORT and OPEN a MIDI file in BIAB. I have been using IMPORT, which doesn't get lyrics, confirmed by both Cerio and me. I was only using IMPORT, and I didn't realize that you could directly open a midi file. (this has drawbacks - see below)

2) There is a difference in the way BIAB MIDI exports are received by other programs. MuseScore seems to be the best as far as lyrics are concerned. Sibelius not good, since it gets the lyrics as staff text, and Synthezer V gets no lyrics. Therefore, I should get the free version of MuseScore to use as a bridging program to get lyrics from BIAB to Synthesizer V.

3) There is a difference in the way BIAB Music XML files are received by other programs. Sibelius imports them perfectly, whereas MuseScore doesn't. Hence Sibelius is great for XML and Musescore for MIDI, but not the other way around. Very strange, so there must be different standards and versions of MIDI and XML protocols, I guess.

Through a combination of programs it seems possible to get lyrics in and out of BIAB, but with one major drawback. If you want to go back and forth between the two programs, as you are writing and developing an arrangement, if you save a Synthesizer V file as MIDI you cannot get it back into the ORIGINAL SONG you have been working on in BIAB. You have to have to make a new song file, which doesn't have the chords and realtracks you had before. I suppose you could make a copy of the chords and paste them into the new file as a workaround (and load the style.) But then you could also make a copy of the lyrics first (in Synthesizer V) and IMPORT (instead of OPEN) into the original BIAB song, and you would have the melody (without lyrics) to generate instant harmonies. Then when you send it back to Synthesizer, you would have to paste the lyrics you copied before the first step. In other words, you will have to copy something and paste it back either way. Either copy the chords for re-entry in BIAB, or copy the lyrics for re-entry in Synth V.

I hope this is not too confusing for you! Anyway, thank you for finding some more possibilities, like getting MuseScore and using OPEN in BIAB. One thing I found interesting in using OPEN, is that BIAB tries to make a chord sheet for a melody that has no chords. It tries as intelligently as it can to figure out what possible chords would work against your melody. They are not what you intended, but interesting nonetheless.

I really like Synthesizer V, and would like to make more BIAB automatic harmonies with it for songs, so this will ultimately be a workflow that a lot of people will appreciate. The test song I made (5-Part Harmony) was just to see how intelligent BIAB is, so I used lots of chords and key changes, and stuff to see how well it knew what to do with non-chordal notes, passing tones, and scale alterations in transposed sections. It did extremely well, and I am impressed. The lyrics I typed in were just for fun.

Thanks again...

Cerio, are you going to report the confirmed bug and two workflow gaps?

@ThomasS that answers your question "What is the difference between a bug and a wish list"
The bug is marginal because you have an option to do it another way, albeit inconvenient.
All your issues are examples of the customer having an expectation of consistent workflow/standards to and from BIAB, that's not currently being delivered by BIAB.

Yes, done. I've only reported issues #1 and #3, which are the ones I can replicate.

ThomasS, I don’t work with lyrics in BIAB but I can comment on your statement, “ Very strange, so there must be different standards and versions of MIDI and XML protocols, I guess.”

The MIDI standard is very old now (MIDI II is just getting started). Implementation of the MIDI standard should be pretty tight at this point. Music XML is much newer. The standard is pretty well established but there are often errors in implementation, either saving or loading. One reason for that is that Music XML attempts to include more info than MIDI. For example, you should get not only notes but text, titles, dynamic and performance markings, and most notably, chords.

I’ve reported some chords that were encoded incorrectly by BIAB, or are unsupported. In other cases such as a 7alt chord, it’s a coin flip as to who defines the notes in that chord.

I did a study several years ago of all the music notation software to see which did good jobs importing Music XML from BIAB. MuseScore 3 was the clear winner. Not only that, but it has the best error handling. It will give you a clue if the file cannot be imported. Most notation programs just crash.

So yes, it’s not the standard, so much as the implementation.

Thank you, everyone, for taking the time to investigate this. I didn't realize that not all MIDI standards are equal, and not all Music XML are either. So it must be impossible for any program, not just BIAB, to be completely compatible with every other program in every respect if this is the case.

I also was impressed by the capability of MuseScore in these tests, so I just downloaded it and may be able to use it for certain needs.

My summary:

1- Through various methods it now is possible to get lyrics out of BIAB and into Synthesizer V.
2- It is only slightly possible, and not ideal, to get lyrics out of Synthesizer V and into BIAB because there is a difference between opening a MIDI file, as opposed to importing the MIDI file into an existing BIAB song. The latter is much more important for a proper workflow, and it seems like it should be possible for import to function the same as open. If not, it would be a good idea to remove the "include lyrics" checkbox in MIDI import (since it doesn't work) but keep it in the open MIDI options.

My recommendation for starting out with Synthesizer V is that it depends on the style of music you like, and whether you want men or women or both.

-If you want two Women - get Solaria and Natalie
-If you want two Men - get any two of Hayden, Saros, Kevin
-If you want just one Male and one Female - most people would likely say Solaria & either Hayden or Saros at this time.
-Jun, Sheena, Mai, and Ninezero are the least useful for starting out, but can be added later if you want a choir.
-Asterian is essential if you want to make a proper SATB choir, because he is the only voice who can sing the low bass notes. However he is limited as a soloist (except for classical or music theater) so not recommended if you just want two voices.

Thank you for the information. It’s very helpful.
I’ve been scoping out the product for several months now, and will go with your advice for the first male and female.