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I have mentioned this previously, when discussing that in original release version of 2024, rendering an MP3 file would bomb when exporting at 48000. The PG solution was to make it render at 41000, even if set to 48000.
That being said, there's a great difference even at 41000, between what is rendered in BIAB to an MP3 and what you hear while playing back the chord sheet in BIAB (2024 1108), making it hard to do a mix that's to be rendered to MP3. What I hear when playing back is very different than the rendered file.
Playback has a much more open sound, less compressed/squashed sounding.
To demonstrate this, I've placed a link below that shows two files...
One I've labeled "Test Track 1" which was captured from BIAB using the WAV button and rendering an MP3.
The other "Test Track 2", I captured using loopback in Audacity and rendered to MP3 from there.
They both were done with the same settings, but the Audacity render sounds exactly like what I hear when playing back in BIAB. The BIAB render sounds like "mush" (poetic license) in comparison.
Judge for yourself, but please give listen through on each,
As I've said, I've mentioned this before, but from the previous responses, it doesn't appear that the render quality is a major concern.
Thanks.
https://1drv.ms/f/s!Asf_MVrLFgfY2tl51FTcQH5qMvmIPA?e=zK0ER7
Last edited by Thunderthud; 01/12/24 08:10 AM.
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I can hear a difference but i always export my BIAB (actuallly finished in RB) projects to wav and then use audacity to convert to mp3. just the way i've always done it dating back to when BIAB?RB was less user frindly for creating mp3s. what rate did you set for the mp3 transfer?
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Yes, but why can't BIAB just have a decent mp3 export. I'm sure audacity must use public domain rendering. Lame etc.
(Lame is the codec name... Not calling anyone lame.)
Set to 41000 both cases.
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point taken but the MP3 format can range from around 96 to 320Kbps which is what i meant. could the versions have different rates which would affect the quality? in audacity its easy to set the bit rate. i'm not sure abour BIAB
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point taken but the MP3 format can range from around 96 to 320Kbps which is what i meant. could the versions have different rates which would affect the quality? in audacity its easy to set the bit rate. i'm not sure abour BIAB You can set mp3 to the highest quality settings, 32 bit, 300, 48000, but BiAB apparently ignores some of the settings.
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Hi Thunderthud, I'm reasonably sure that both BIAB and Audacity use the LAME mp3 encoder. I suspect that what you are hearing is that BIAB has saved the file using "Joint Stereo" while Audacity has saved the file as plain "Stereo". ![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=27040&filename=thunderthud - test tracks 1 and 2 comparison.jpg) When I look at the two wav files in Reaper, it's possible to see very small variations. ![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=27043&filename=thunderthud - test tracks 1 and 2 comparison2(smaller).jpg) Personally, I don't like joint stereo because it lacks a little clarity to my ears (which is what you also seem to be hearing). The article below explains the differences between the two types of stereo. The better quality one is "Stereo". The article describes "Joint Stereo" an 'optimised' version of stereo. https://riverside.fm/blog/joint-stereo-vs-stereo I hope this helps with a little bit of insight. When I tried to export a wav in the latest version of Audacity (3.4.2) this morning, it was also Joint Stereo and I did not have any options to save the file as just plain stereo. I'm guessing that your version of Audacity is somehow different from mine. I'll report this behaviour to the development team and ask if it's possible for an option to export mp3s as either stereo or joint stereo. I always save my file as wav in BIAB and then use either Reaper (which also uses LAME but lets me disable joint stereo) or Freac audio converter (which also uses LAME and lets me diable joint stereo). All the best, --Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2025
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Interesting. Would like the mp3 file to sound like what I'm hearing when I mix it in BIAB. So if you're correct that this is the difference, an option or a change, to render in straight stereo would be appreciated. Thanks for your time in researching this!
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(Edit - I see that while I was typing, Noel added an insightful comment. I'm not sure about the joint stereo, maybe there is something to that...) Yes, but why can't BIAB just have a decent mp3 export. I'm sure audacity must use public domain rendering. Lame etc.
(Lame is the codec name... Not calling anyone lame.)
Set to 41000 both cases Band-in-a-Box itself does not do ANY mp3 encoding, nor does we include any MP3 codecs. I'm not sure if you are aware of the long history of MP3 codecs and the licensing issues. To make a long story short, we can finally do it via Windows Media Foundation and it works very well. It may require a 16bit file however I'm pretty sure that 48K sample rate is fine. You can select up to 320kbps. Band-in-a-Box does not otherwise control the quality of your MP3. This is controlled by whatever codec Windows Media Foundation is using. I listened to the two files, and to be honest I'm not sure I hear the difference - maybe it's just the headphones I'm using at the moment, and I didn't do a really close AB. I can see however that the mp3 you created from BiaB is a bit smaller in size so that indicates that a different algorithm was used. Here are a couple of suggestions /points. - Don't confuse a bug that was present in bbw.exe build 1102 with 48K rendering. - Do you NEED an mp3 file specifically? If you're just aiming for the best quality sound in a compressed file, use mp4 (m4a) instead. - If you need an mp3 for some reason (e.g. to upload to a platform that only supports mp3 or whatever) and you are finding that Audacity generates better sounding mp3's, then just export a wave file from Band-in-a-Box and compress it with Audacity.
Last edited by Andrew - PG Music; 01/12/24 01:36 PM.
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PG Music Inc.
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Thanks, but you do know that you offer rendering options under the file/wave button in the toolbar and one of the options is a sample rate of 48000... but it renders at 41000 (even when 48000 is selected). And yes I need to supply files as mp3. And these mp'3s do not sound like what I'm mixing in the program.
This has nothing to do with the bug in 1102, where rendering bombed out, and rendered in slower tempo. It has to do with rendering an accurate reproduction of what you' thought you've mixed.
There is a very real difference in sound. If Noel is correct and the file is being rendered in joint stereo mode.. this is a mode that DOES modify/sacrifice fidelity for file size. Not a sacrifice that is necessary or beneficial here, and a hinderence in work flow.
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Thunderthud,
You probably already know this so I apologise in advance if I'm passing on redundant information.
The native format of BIAB files (including the Audiophile version) is 16 bit and 44100 Hz. If a program up-samples BIAB files to 48000 Hz, there is a likelihood that sound quality could reduce because the new sampling frequency needs to interpret audio that was recorded at a different sampling frequency. The calculation 48000/44100 = 1.0884. Because this ratio is not a whole number, there will be some data points that need to be rounded up or down to fit the new frequency.
Regards.
--Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2025
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Thunderthud,
You probably already know this so I apologise in advance if I'm passing on redundant information.
The native format of BIAB files (including the Audiophile version) is 16 bit and 44100 Hz. If a program up-samples BIAB files to 48000 Hz, there is a likelihood that sound quality could reduce because the new sampling frequency needs to interpret audio that was recorded at a different sampling frequency. The calculation 48000/44100 = 1.0884. Because this ratio is not a whole number, there will be some data points that need to be rounded up or down to fit the new frequency.
Regards.
--Noel Thanks but I know that BIAB sample rate is 41000. Been through this before. Was making the point to Andrew that BIAB offers a 48000 option that actually samples at 41000. Also, a very recent post, about rendered mp3's resulted in a slower tempo. (and bombing). This was something I'd also encountered as well, with the original 2024 release. This was fixed in later releases by limiting sample rate to 41000 (even if 48000 is selected). (Problem had been occurring when 48000 was selected) So, to make a long story less long, I couldn't have rendered at 48000, even if I wanted to. But thanks again for you time and input. You've made some good points!
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Thanks, but you do know that you offer rendering options under the file/wave button in the toolbar and one of the options is a sample rate of 48000... but it renders at 41000 (even when 48000 is selected) You need to separate the two steps in your mind, (1) exporting to a wave file and (2) compressing that file to mp3. If you select mp3 in BiaB, it's just doing the two steps one after the other, and for the second step it's just feeding that very file to WMF. Exporting as either a 48 or 44.1 Khz wave file is working properly in my testing. ![[Linked Image from nn.pgmusic.com]](https://nn.pgmusic.com/pgfiles/support/misc/rendertest.png) If you were to say that the wave file sounds nothing like what you hear when you play the song in Band-in-a-Box, that is a totally different thing, and might mean that some parts were re-generated and are actually different.
Last edited by Andrew - PG Music; 01/12/24 02:45 PM.
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Yes... I am and was aware of that. But it's an extra step that shouldn't be necessary. Thanks
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