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Hello, I just have a look at all the provided artist performances with vocals. And most of the time the MIDI of the vocals is transcribed an octave higker than the real voice. Over 50% of the tracks show this behaviour. ![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=28336&filename=0003000_Render Vocals, Lead.png) Sometimes other tracks (like Bass) show this behaviour, too. What causes this?
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Yes, this is normal - this is often done with vocals and with bass, to avoid using too many ledger lines.
Andrew
PG Music Inc.
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What does "ledger lines" mean? (I hope that doesn't sound too stupid to ask. I am new in this "teritory"  ) And how to I deal with it? Because I want it to be accurate. Is there information somewhere that the real sound of the instrument has to be an octave lower? And does that happen for other instruments, too (besides Vocals and Bass)?
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And where can I find the information that this is for readability and that I don't have to sing lower? Is this displayed somewhere?
Background:
If I have five voices in a piece and two are octave-shifted and three are not, how do I find out which one?
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What does "ledger lines" mean? (I hope that doesn't sound too stupid to ask. I am new in this "teritory" ) And how to I deal with it? Because I want it to be accurate. Is there information somewhere that the real sound of the instrument has to be an octave lower? And does that happen for other instruments, too (besides Vocals and Bass)? Good question. A ledger line or leger line is used in Western musical notation to notate pitches above or below the lines and spaces of the regular musical staff. A line slightly longer than the note head is drawn parallel to the staff, above or below, spaced at the same distance as the lines within the staff. ![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=28345&filename=Screenshot 2024-07-08 220115.png) Is there information somewhere that the real sound of the instrument has to be an octave lower?
And does that happen for other instruments, too (besides Vocals and Bass)? I would say that Bass is generally notated an octave higher than it sounds while Guitar is notated an octave lower than it sounds exactly for the reason that indicated. I have no experience reading or notating voice, but I assume this would also be similar.
BIAB – 2026, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud.
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You explained it perfectly Dan. As Andrew mentioned, the reason is purely to keep the notation reasonably within the staff lines for certain instruments.
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
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Thanks, Dan and AudioTrack, for explaining the ledger lines.
Back to BIAB and exporting songs to MIDI the question reamins:
If I have five voices (lanes/tracks/instruments) in a piece (song) and two are octave-shifted and three are not, how do I find out which one?
Is there an indication about it where I can recognize it and sepaate them into shifted (transposed) and not shifted?
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....................................................
I would say that Bass is generally notated an octave higher than it sounds while Guitar is notated an octave lower than it sounds exactly for the reason that indicated. I have no experience reading or notating voice, but I assume this would also be similar. Correction Dan, guitar is also written an octave higher that it sounds. I explained all of this is the tips forum: https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=764495#Post764495
My boss calls me "the computer".
Nothing to do with intelligence. I go to sleep if left unattended for 15 minutes.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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You explained it perfectly Dan. As Andrew mentioned, the reason is purely to keep the notation reasonably within the staff lines for certain instruments. Yes, it is for notation. However the problem occurs when using certain VSTis . I wrote all about this in the tip forum: https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=764495#Post764495
Last edited by MarioD; 07/09/24 05:13 AM.
My boss calls me "the computer".
Nothing to do with intelligence. I go to sleep if left unattended for 15 minutes.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Thanks, Dan and AudioTrack, for explaining the ledger lines.
Back to BIAB and exporting songs to MIDI the question reamins:
If I have five voices (lanes/tracks/instruments) in a piece (song) and two are octave-shifted and three are not, how do I find out which one?
Is there an indication about it where I can recognize it and sepaate them into shifted (transposed) and not shifted? No there is and can not be indications in BiaB because it depends on what VSTi you are using. You have the link that explains all of this from your PM.
My boss calls me "the computer".
Nothing to do with intelligence. I go to sleep if left unattended for 15 minutes.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Thanks Mario for clarifying that important point.
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
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Tenor Saxophone is written an octave higher, to keep the notes from spanning both bass and treble clefs.
It's also written one step (two half steps) higher than the pitch it sounds. So when the piano or guitar plays a Bb, the tenor sax plays a C in order to play the same pitch. The alto sax plays a G. There is a good reason for that, but it's another post.
When reading a chart, if notes on the ledger lines are higher than F, It gets a bit difficult to sightread. Same for lower than C on the bass clef.
Notes ♫
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Here is what google says..."...middle C on a guitar ( ie. B string, 1st fret) is actually an octave lower in relation to concert pitch. So, notes sound an octave lower than notated. As such, music notation for guitar is written an octave higher than it sounds" Just as you have stated. However, I generally think of middle C on the guitar as 5th string 3rd fret. So I admit, I may be confused!  Nevertheless, I truely appreciate your tip  and will only add for the OP, best to let you ear tell you if you need to adjust midi notation (up or down an octave) in DAW (or GP) which is played by your synth (VSTi).
BIAB – 2026, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud.
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I don't want to confuse the discussion any more than I might have already, but when I was a little youngster, I was taught that middle C was the C Note nearest to key-lock on the piano. OK, I confused it a little more, there's no lock on a guitar (or saxophone), sorry Would the real middle-C please stand up? Yes, don't expect every instrument to adhere to the exact same octave by its notation. It's never been that way. Now, back to the main program.
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
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I don't want to confuse the discussion any more than I might have already, but when I was a little youngster, I was taught that middle C was the C Note nearest to key-lock on the piano. OK, Sorry, I have to ask, what is a Key-lock on the piano? 
BIAB – 2026, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud.
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Sorry, I have to ask, what is a Key-lock on the piano? It's when you close the lid and lock the lid shut with a key so no one can tinker  ![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=28347&filename=2024-07-10_1-50-01.jpg) (Actually, the correct name for the piano lid is 'the fall' - I think it's got something to do with hurting your fingers when that happens...)
Last edited by AudioTrack; 07/09/24 07:55 AM.
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
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Gave me a good chuckel. Fact is I have never owned a Piano and of all the keyboards I have had and have, none have had a Key! 
BIAB – 2026, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud.
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To further confuse the issue there is this tidbit: The anchor note for midi is "C" as it is the ONLY note with a defined midi note number. Midi "C" = note number 60. Lower notes receive lower number and higher notes receive higher numbers. Does midi note "C" equal C2, C3, C4, C5 and so on on a keyboard? A Roland keyboard outputs midi note 60 when C3 is depressed while a Yamaha keyboard outputs midi not 60 when C4 is depressed. Every VSTi developer gets to choose which "C" is assigned midi note "C" but most follow either what Roland or Yamaha decided decades ago. +++ HERE +++ is a clever webpage that discusses this oddity and has some clever charts to further illustrate why it matters.
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I've noticed that difference between my Korg keyboard, BiaB, and my Master Tracks Pro MIDI sequencer.
In MIDI, note number 60 is the only way to know for sure.
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Middle C is the C immediately below 440 A, and is approximately 261.63 Hz.
The C note on the first fret of the B string on a guitar is middle C in actual pitch, but is notated an octave higher. Guitar is a transposing instrument and sounds (played) one octave lower than written. As others mentioned, this avoids excessive use of leger lines.
The lower 4 strings on a guitar E A D G are only one octave higher than the 4 strings on a bass.
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