As a new “younger” user of the program (40) myself, I do appreciate the functionality of the program. Unfortunately I do find the user interface VERY dated, cumbersome and unintuitive. This would certainly be a turnoff for younger users who might look to pickup the program. Again, even the actual website to pick which version you want feels 10-15 years out of date in style and formatting. Both of these issues would help to put younger people off from even trying the program, which is a shame as I do find it useful and produces some good results.
As a “younger” person, who works in IT and did a music technology degree at university (when I was even younger! lol), I’d be happy to provide some constructive feedback and suggestions to the team if they so wished.
(note i was in IT/tech also....too darn long...lol.) there are many users that feel the same way as you...myself included. however one problem for pg i think is the old IT managers problem...and ive seen it many times in industry whereby various users that have got used to an apps menus and 'look' are a tad resistant to change as they have got used to doing things a certain way.
once in industry i was put in charge of a massive legacy system (read old app with too many 'bolt ons')..and was fought tooth and nail by some members of the user base as to change. in summary its a conundrum for a developer how to keep everybody happy.
what i do with young people getting into doing music production who dont like the 'look' of biab is to show them what RESULTS they can get with it. i find less resistance that way....and they go 'WOWSER' !
frankly i dont know a good solution cos someone somewhere is gonna always get teed off is my experience.
btw if youve never done it...look at realband (rb). same deal a tad 'quirky' on the surface but choc full of features and many unique ones i havent seen in any other daw haveing recently tested lots of free right up to expensive music apps that often had lots of 'flash' i guess to attract new users...but in the end i end back with rb because it has various unique features. (note ive been asking for more 'flash' in rb also but as you know as an IT person adding lots of 'flash' can also bloat up an app often...its a catch 22.)
happiness.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 10/05/2405:31 AM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
As a new “younger” user of the program (40) myself, I do appreciate the functionality of the program. Unfortunately I do find the user interface VERY dated, cumbersome and unintuitive. This would certainly be a turnoff for younger users who might look to pickup the program. Again, even the actual website to pick which version you want feels 10-15 years out of date in style and formatting. Both of these issues would help to put younger people off from even trying the program, which is a shame as I do find it useful and produces some good results.
"user interface VERY dated, cumbersome and unintuitive"
"10-15 years out of date in style and formatting"
I had these exact same impressions 12 years ago when I first discovered BIAB (and still do). When I found this forum I was advised to listen to the songs by users in the showcase forum but that didn't sway me as most of those songs also sounded dated and uninteresting to me. Furthermore, the price to get the whole set is non-trivial; I've bought plenty of $50 tools and plugins that I didn't end up enjoying but $500-ish was a lot for me to take a chance on!
After a lot of back and forth I finally bought the software and have purchased every upgrade ever since. It is a phenomenal tool and produces incredible results! I just wish the powers that be would realize how badly the GUI and website need modernizing. I think time is running out for this tool as products like Toontrack's EZ stuff get better and more comprehensive. And also AI can now do a complete backing track almost as good as BIAB. I think BIAB will continue to do ok but will probably never reach it's full potential given it's old look and feel compared to the new tools coming online.
Adam, You are right. A part of the problem is there is a bunch (a very small bunch) of people that systematically tries to stagnate progress. For example, some, if they can't adopt have threatened not to update. Other's, clinging to obsolete methods like there is no tomorrow, even when new options are much more intuitive and more flexible. Some don't update in years and expect red carpet service. Some find pleasure digging deep in menus and accept a workaround as a permanent solution. It is unfortunate if such views have impact on development. At times I think they do.
On the bright side, BIAB is amazing and unique software that lets you legally(!) have studio musicians from sitar to spoons and everything in between play on your tracks. If you are using 2024 version, regenerations are about 5-10 times faster than let's say 2023 and prior versions. I thought that would never be possible and it was a huge drawback for me as I do a lot of changes before finalizing, but PGM solved that. Also, in 2024 MTP Library was introduced. This is non-modal. Meaning, you have full access to all PGM content in one place (Tracks, loops, MIDI, Styles, etc) to use on the fly without having to close window - or use a second monitor. "Bar settings" option which is also one of the most popular tools became non-modal.
Having said that. Content, function and speed are all there. I believe to make the most of the software as far as Gui/workflow goes in a short run, tools, options and some often used menu items have to be logically combined and integrated into modular and dockable (tabbed) modern panels. Not flashy, but not mid 90s either. Similar as you would expect from music and graphics software. I believe this is very doable and would solve in part both, a lot of unneeded complexity and aesthetics.
Adam, I am curious, what single change to BIAB you think would make biggest overall impact?
… however one problem for pg i think is the old IT managers problem...and ive seen it many times in industry whereby various users that have got used to an apps menus and 'look' are a tad resistant to change as they have got used to doing things a certain way. … om
Here it goes again, blaming the existing user base, especially the more experienced ones, for somehow holding back progress.
What is your evidence for this?
The users I know here who are active in testing and making suggestions, especially those out of the public eye, advocate regularly for changes of all sorts.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
whoa there matt...i'm a looong time user also. and all for pg doing things that improve a product and make life easier for the user base. look at the many product suggestions ive made over the years includeing many this year re bb and rb because i would like to see pg continue to be successfull.
there was no intent on my part to demean long time users like yourself or anyone.
all i was trying to say is for some people in this world ...sometimes they are resistant to change. its just good old 'human nature' at work.
when i wrote that i was thinking of say a user that bought into pg products lets say just a couple of years ago and has mastered all the various advanced features of bb and nooks and crannies.
with some people its understandeable if they sigh if they are being asked to do some things differently or re-learn something or modify their workflow. me i love improvements. eg the new tracks window in bb....and ive made several suggestions about it which, if implemented, i feel would make bb a market slayer matt.
i will repeat there was no intent on my part re current long time users. i was just commenting on how human nature can sometimes be from my life experiences.
ALSO i'm not singling out pg at all....its tough for any developer. ive seen people running all sorts of non pg music apps sigh and be a bit resistant to change....just human nature....thats all i'm suggesting.
i wish you the best matt.
happiness.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 10/05/2401:50 PM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
As a user since the 1990s and now in my 70s, I posted about the new stylepicker not being as easy (for me!) to use as the old one and got a bit of a telling off for not taking the time to learn a new tool that actually didn't offer me too much in the way of useful improvement. But as an old and existing user i'll get used to it and i'm not holding up progress.
The BIAB GUI is so complicated because the functionality of BIAB has been tweaked so much to meet the demands of users who want BIAB to be a DAW not simply an auto accompaniment program. That is PG responding to users not ignoring them.
Giving BIAB so muc h in the way of new functions has meant a complicated and confusing interface and I understand why people don't easily get used to it.
But if you combine BIAB at its simplest with the extra functionality you get with RB (or well known DAWs like Reaper) generating a basic track is still quite easy.
as PG say in their blurb.........Band-in-a-Box® is so easy to use! Just type in the chords for any song using standard chord symbols (like C, Fm7, or C13b9), choose the style you'd like, and Band-in-a-Box® does the rest... Band-in-a-Box® automatically generates a complete professional-quality arrangement of piano, bass, drums, guitar, and strings or horns.
That is all you need to do before you transfer to a DAW - which is the work pattern a lot of us use.
BIAB only looks so cluttered and uninviting because PG has responded to its users who have asked for so many bolt on functions.
A real example of 'be careful what you ask for'. Do the 'newer looking' programs that 'young people' like actually do what BIAB does? It's an amazing program that is as complicated or as simple as you wish to make it.
I've also seen a lot of resistance to change in the forums during the many years I've been here, and I'm convinced that this attitude has had an undeniable influence on the development of the program.
BIAB only looks so cluttered and uninviting because PG has responded to its users who have asked for so many bolt on functions.
This is partially true ... part of the art of evolving and advancing products, especially software, is in seeing the emerging patterns and forming the product into a cohesive and elegant whole. "Bolting on" seems to be PGM's way, but what one ends up with, by so doing, in a Heath-Robinson-esque construction.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
Every day I try to learn at least one new thing, today it's Heath Robinson, somehow this guy's name never made it on my radar. But I just love how this guy's brain worked. At least he's getting his excersie on that crank
Last edited by Bass Thumper; 10/05/2404:33 PM.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
I was largely instrumental in getting the new User Interface <ctrl-T> implemented. There was even a 'capsize the boat' moment getting acceptance that it was a positive step forward. It's the only interface I use now, (but I think some others still use the older interface).
It's definitely out of our hands what the developers deliver, but be assured that there is a continuous stream of suggestions for improvements heading their way.
BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
To justanoldmuso (om), I have overreacted since I was mistaken. You are not the user who uses three or perhaps four user names, who regularly made erroneous assertions about experienced users continually with no evidence.
My apologies to you.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
today it's Heath Robinson, somehow this guy's name never made it on my radar.
I think he may be peculiarly British. Even in the UK, many people now won't know where the term "Heath Robinson" originated and, sadly in many ways, I think his work and humour is gradually being forgotten. I suspect here and now many people would look blank if they heard the name.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
Robert Heinlein described three phases of a machine. 1 it works but with lots of clunkiness and inefficiencies 2 things like a flywheel are bolted on to smooth out the clunkiness 3 clunkiness engineered out and it woks as it should have done in the first place
personally i can see why PG 'bolt on' rather than totally re-engneer
I suspect here and now many people would look blank if they heard the name.
Well, as of today, I can't be counted (anymore) as one who looks blank at the hearing of his name I'm thinking his equivalent in the popular music domain might be Al Stewart . . . another big brain; and another Brit.
Btw, my theory of why so many top-shelf musicians were born in England is attributed to newspaper ink. Think about it; what were fish and chips wrapped in? So you budding musicians who want to be famous someday, wrap your food in newspaper
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
where i come from in the uk in my old stomping grounds there is a saying viz >>>> 'it takes a great man to issue an apology'. you are such a man and great respect to you for that. i wish you always the very best Matt..
i think frankly some companies would love to have the many dedicated users that pg has. bottom line we all want to see pg continue to be successfull in this crazy world.
@BassThumper.
i just told my wife about your 'chish and fips in newspaper' comment. we laughed like crazy.. her reply was 'that explains why you are a pita'...lol.
happiness.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 10/06/2404:56 AM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
I feel is more people focused on what BiaB does best and does well the GUI would be far less important. As far as younger folks today they may or may not pass it by. Who know we have no data to either confirm or deny. What we do know is the younger generation seems to be more visually driven and less likely to dig in. They tend to be more tech driven and want everything at their fingertips. I won't deny BiaB needs some more love but i for one would rather have the developers focus on fixing long time issues and completing current initiatives than fuss with making it "pretty"
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2025, Realband, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 9 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app.
I don't have any problem with the BiaB interface. I wouldn't have a problem with a redesign, as long as it doesn't affect the functionality. If it improves my workflow it's great, if it hinders it, it's a bad idea.
I really wonder if any young folks are hindered because the GUI looks so "old fashioned". After all Google looks pretty old fashioned to me, similar to the way it looked in the 20th century.
Some web pages and GUIs seem to be more about entertaining than function. This only slows down what I want to do there.
My website is pretty retro, too. But I had a teacher at a major uinversity ask if he could use my website as an example of what to do in his class. He liked the simpllicity and ease of navigation for so many products.
I suspect the real reasons why youngsters don't use BiaB are: (1) Creating music is not as important. Splice a loop or two over and over and rap on top is easy, if you have the ability to ryme (2) BiaB is not marketed to the youth market.
I don't think a modern interface would either help or hinder. But if it makes BiaB easier to use, I'm all for it.
The real problem about the GUI (It has been said many times here) is not how the program looks, but how confusing, counterintuitve and inconsistent it is for most users, except maybe for those who have been using it for many years in a daily basis (and are simply used to its many quirks) or for those who make a really basic use of the program (just load some chords, pick an style and that's all).
The aesthetic aspect of the user interface is the simplest and most banal part of user interface design, a simple aesthetic change would have no positive effect on the user experience. Only a thorough review and redesign of the functional aspects of the GUI would contribute to improve this aspect.
Cerio i do agree with you on that. Menu clean up, and redundancy removal is key. I see that some of that is already slowly happening. the non model menu changes are a big help. The tracks view and Multipicker was and is a significant upgrade i would love to see those features continue to grow and refine. I do believe that is exactly what Peter and crew intend. GUI can mean different things to different people. To some it is just graphic looks, to others it is more a workflow and tactile thing.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2025, Realband, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 9 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app.
XPro and Xtra Styles PAKs Special Extended Until August 31st!
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