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I do not recall a time on this forum, and I've been here about 15 years, when there has been so much rancor among the "patrons". Frayed nerve endings. You know . . . "Hello". "What'd ya mean by that?!" Much can be misconstrued in written words - another Murphy's Law I guess - if there's a way to misunderstand a simple phrase, it will be misunderstood. It's as if we're expecting to be attacked, we're in "fight and flight" mode from the get-go. Helluva way to live. When they come here some users seem to be expecting the worst for a response. Does it really make sense why someone who was trying to help would verbally attack while trying to answer a help question. Nevertheless there seems to be a lot of defensive individuals out there. Let me say that no-one here is gunning for you. So don't assume the worst. Written English can often be imprecise, and I don't understand why people seem to assume the worst. Is that the new reality? Ian 
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Ian, i agree with you, but would add that this is not just in the forum, but in life in general. With economic issue, and health issue, employment problems,and so much more on the table today people seem testy. I for one have gotten caught up in it.
I see long time forum regs that seem to feel the need to defend, often setting noobs on their heels. New users are frustrated trying to make thing do what the need, with a very complicated software package. I don't know if I have an answer, but I do know that it takes the whole of the community to make a change. After the little battle i had with one forum member i decided to try harder to take responsibility for my words, and actions, and not to hold others to to hard of a line.
People come here just like any other forum seeking answers to questions they do not fully understand. They might even be forming the question wrong, or we might be reading it wrong. either way this stuff can be frustrating and difficult at best. One long timer here said the other day that he still learns something new frequently. I really thought about my journey here and elsewhere and realized i can't blame noobs for being confused.
Tolerance, patience, kindness all go a long way in the daily process of life.
Thanks for opening this up, and for your good example of those virtues over the past months. You seem to be a rather calm fella' overall. Keep it up.
Rob
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
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Quote:
Is that the new reality?
I hope not, or maybe it's just Friday the 13th. 
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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Journeyman
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Hi Ian,
Of all the Forums I belong to, which are all music related, this is the only one I've been noticing it on.
Maybe a lack of patience sometimes. I've noticed since V2010 as opposed to V2009 Software, there seems to be a lot more frustration. I believe this also goes along with the new version of Windows 7.
New Software and New Computers. Campared to a year ago, there are a lot more (compatibility issues) to be worked out.
Using my XP machine with V2009.5, I only had one small issue to deal with. Everything works fine for me as long as I stay where I am.
Maybe the gap between the New User and the Old Pros is shrinking. It's not just the software. It's 32bit, 64bit, XP, Win7, RealTacks and it all comes on an external drive which has driven up the cost, along with having to get new interfaces.
An old user like myself will be asking the same basic questions when I get a new PC.
My current machine is a WinXP 2007 Gateway FX-something, Core 2duo, 2 gbRam, SB X-fi soundcard, Great Graphics card and a 500gb RAID system. I don't even know what RAID does and I don't care anymore. I also run two 22" moitors. It all works without a hitch..
I have to get a new PC very soon and I am totally clueless. I've really been avoiding it.
[I'm nervous just thinking about it]
I know, too long a post but, I think there are just too many learning curves at the moment.
[also concerned] Wayne,
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Robh - you mentioned my being calm - appreciated by the way - I think I'm alot calmer since I couldn't afford to drive any more. Been off the road for half a dozen years. This community comes here - to neutral ground - to share a commonality that we all enjoy - producing/creating music - by the nature of everyone enjoying this activity, this forum should be a calm place to tackle common problems. Maybe that's oxymoronic thinking to a degree . . . that calm and computers/software should be be linked in any way.  And while we share this pleasurable thing called music, it's obvious there is a good deal of anger below the surface of individuals that can explode very suddenly and with little provocation, in the place we come to escape from all of this real world reality. Quite a paradox. A philosopher I'm not. But I just hate it when I see a thread go downhill over something seemingly harmless. And John . . . thanks for the heads-up on Friday the 13th. I hadn't noticed it. I was going to go out for a beer but there's this ladder across the entrance . . . . Ian
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Journeyman
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Hi again Ian,
I think this thread should help.
Wayne,
(p.s. Nothing is Real - John Lennon)
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A long hot summer, maybe there's a song in that.
Wyndham
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The PC I described is the best of three. I still use my 2002 Gateway Pentium 4, 512mg Ram, 40gb drive which was underwater for 8 days from a flood in 2006, hence the newer 2007 PC.
I also have a Acer Pentium-D, which I can't use for music because the fan is too loud. It sounds like a vacuum cleaner.
My problem is my best PC is used for everything.
We have no TV so we stream Netflix and everything else.
Wayne,
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The written word is easily mis-interpreted and people get offended. We are human. I simply avoid the posts which are offensive to me or others. I try to help out whenever I may have an answer for someone.
Biab does have a learning curve and I asked a million questions when I started here. We are family here and this is THE BEST place to get help for our software or DAW. There are people here who have an immense knowledge of the recording process and they freely share their knowledge with us all. I am thankful for those who have tutored me here.
Try to avoid the trash talk and get to know each other (personalities) here. There are some great people who will help you out in a heartbeat.
Trax
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Trax,
(Human: Any living or extinct member of the family Hominidae characterized by superior intelligence, articulate speech, and erect carriage)
(I think I just failed Human on all counts?)
Wayne,
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Say, Wayne, about that fan that is too loud - which one is it? A case fan, a fan on the graphics card (I really detest those, with the high-pitched whine), or the power supply fan? I build my own PCs and have had to replace a noisy fan on occasion. Some replacement fans come with a high/low speed adjustment switch, too. It all depends on what the problem is, but there may be a simple enough solution for that computer.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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I think the "culture" has a lot to do with it. By that I mean a "micro" culture as opposed to a macro (national) culture. We've all seen it. Sometimes you've worked in a place where everybody is helpful and friendly. Other places may have less interaction and folks keep to themselves. I hang out on another (non-music) forum. If someone starts getting insulting there, the moderators just dump them out. As a result, everybody is always nice. I don't join in on those posts where necks are bowing. Also if someone starts a thread being accusatory or a little cranky, I keep away from it. Finally, some of it has to do with how thick your skin is. I asked a question once and got a short response to refer to the manual and/or support forum. I didn't take offense at that because it's exactly what I should have done. At least now I've been reminded to try that first. Sometimes I find the answer, but sometimes I don't. If the manual had a better Index.........
If we all reflect for a moment, I think that we can all agree how very fortunate we all are to have folks on here who are willing to help others. I don't know much, but if I know enough to try and help someone, I do. Some forums put the FAQ's as the first thread with a "sticky". Maybe that would be a help to the new folks. Other forums actually have sections for the new folks to go to for basic questions. I will conclude with saying that if someone gets under your skin with some caustic or snide remark, just don't respond. If everyone does that, they'll soon get the idea. Just my 4 cents....
Stan
Cornet Curmudgeon
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Maybe it's the "Me, me, and I want it now, I know my rights and yours don't matter" culture, exemplified by this lady who couldn't get her chicken nuggets: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-10922428John
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I'll be the first to own up to sometimes coming across as mean. My wife is Swedish and accuses me of it all the time. I'm not being mean. I come from French Canadian ancestry that worked in the mills of NH. My Grandparents and Parents are not educated people. I always remember them as being very direct and abrupt with limited vocabulary. I'm also that way. Add to that that I type with 2 fingers................
If you ask me a question instead of me saying.
" Hey buddy I looked it up for you. There's a really nice explanation of it on page 234 of the manual. If you go to the directory were the bb folder is and look for the >pdf for the manual you should find it. If you can't please PM me and we'll find it for you."
I'll say;
"Did you look in the manual"
So there ya go. If you don't like the way I talk put me on ignore.
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John - the Jack Webb "Just the facts ma'am" approach - should not be a problem. We're all big boys. Straight facts shouldn't have to be sugar-coated and we really have no time for wondering "Oh . . . did I say that nicely enough." But too often the worst is assumed - or the person feels uncomfortable because they didn't check the manual and they fire back defensively and on and on. I have six kids and watching the dynamics of their interpersonal relationships as they grew was quite the experience for me - an only child. They're now all over 24 and get along but occasionally the wheels come off. We can't worry about every comma, at best maybe we just keep a misunderstanding from escalating. Ian
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Well, the first thing that jumped in my mind, after reading John's example was he could have typed "Pg 234 of manual" and done less typing.. running for cover now and yer not on ignore here, I seen you help too many times.
Last edited by rharv; 08/14/10 09:54 AM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Exactly - new protocol????? 
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Quote:
John - the Jack Webb "Just the facts ma'am" approach - should not be a problem. We're all big boys. Straight facts shouldn't have to be sugar-coated and we really have no time for wondering "Oh . . . did I say that nicely enough."
But too often the worst is assumed - or the person feels uncomfortable because they didn't check the manual and they fire back defensively and on and on. I have six kids and watching the dynamics of their interpersonal relationships as they grew was quite the experience for me - an only child. They're now all over 24 and get along but occasionally the wheels come off.
We can't worry about every comma, at best maybe we just keep a misunderstanding from escalating.
Ian
Good points Ian.
I think there are tried-and-true methods for keeping flames from escalating.
1) forums should have formal rules, and they should be posted where everybody can find them (that is true here, but it isn't true in every forum)
2) forum members (as well as forum moderators) should gently remind offenders what the rules are when they are breached. I say GENTLY, because one sure way to throw gas on a flame is to insult somebody openly in a group. People tend to answer in kind, so if your answer is patient and inoffensive, it will probably yield a gentle reply.
3) When necessary, reprimands should be issued in an "equal-to-equal" tone, not in a "superior to inferior" tone. Very few people will accept being talked down to without escalating the flame. This includes commenting on an expressed opinion in a way that demeans the opinion.
4) a good way to offer an opposing point of view without ridiculing the point of view that has already been offered is to say something like "there are several schools of thought on that... here's another way of looking at it..." or "lots of people see it this way..." Bottom line, be wary of any response that undermines the dignity of others. You can say anything in a way that is either insulting or reinforcing. If we err on the side of preserving dignity, there will be very few flames.
5) when we see somebody who clearly has bad interaction skills, the group needs to call them on it, but not in an insulting way. Don't say "hey buddy , you're an idiot", say "forum rules prohibit personal attacks" or "if you are here to get answers to your questions, be aware that people will shy away from answering questions posted by people who have a history of snapping at those who help them"
6) It is usually safe to comment on the BEHAVIOR (because behavior can be changed, and that's the whole point). If you direct negative comments to the PERSON, that will pretty much always start a flame. Plus, it amounts to a personal attack, which is forbidden by forum rules
7) Imagine trying to steer a ball rolling down a hill by tapping it with a stick. If you tap too hard, the ball goes out of control... and so it is with forum reprimands. Gentle nudging is best. When in doubt, go easier rather than harder.
8) forums where no enforcement of rules exists eventually turn into forums where there are no rules at all except for survival of the meanest. At that point all the value-adding people tend to leave. Therefore there is good reason to guard the environment we have here that is currently full of intellect, trust and goodwill.
I agree that walking on eggshells is no good. A forum is a place of ideas, and therefore we don't want to censor ideas. What we DO want is to manage the TONE in which the ideas are conveyed. It is possible to have a great deal of liberty in discussion if people make an effort to preserve the dignity of everybody involved. Or, you can play hardball... But that usually leads to "survival of the meanest", and that would be step down from where we are now.
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I have seen some pretty explosive topics go by in these forums and things went unexpectedly well. So while a reminder can't hurt, a happy smile for how well this forum has historically done is also due.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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