Charlie, of course there are limits. User limits: like time limit, patience limit, etc. Yes, it's all about convenience. That's why most people buy bread instead of making it. I doubt most of us like to tinker in deep menus to perform basic tasks which are standardized everywhere else in the past 2+ decades.
"It's perfect to record as many tracks as a user needs in BIAB." - with workflow of 1998 maybe it's "perfect". Not for 2025.
P.S. I am sure PGM has further plans for the Track View. I guess we will soon find out
others with experience in tech will see what i'm driving at. and its got to do with tech business strategy or mba 101 in biz schools.....
I've long since lost count of the number of times that I've warned directors that they need both a business strategy and a product strategy. I've also lost count of the number of times I've had to say "we don't have the foundations to do that, because you thought it wasn't important. Some bosses are remarkably stupid. C'est la vie.
Originally Posted by justanoldmuso
2..if one looks at businesses that are successfull one will see they diversify.
Well, yes and no. Divesification can be a two-edged sword. You can lose sight of your raison d'etre; you can spread yourself too thinly in areas that don't necessarily help. The important thing is to spread your business to minimise the impact of a sigle or small group of threats. Lots of businesss do very well by focussing on niche markets. They don't grow to Amazon or Wallmart sizes, but they do well. The problems then come when a new threat appears and replaces the old (e.g. candles->gas-lamps->incandescent lamps->LEDs).
A good strategy, tricky as it may be, is to be the best at what one does, whilst keeping a close eye on what may change or is likely to change, and what will likely be the significance of each likely change.
I think PGM has a good niche market. I think they do well much of what they do, but you'll know I have strong reservations about some of how thwy do it. They have threats from things like EZKeys, Scaler, iRealPro, regenerative AI, DAW-based beatmakers. Undoubtedly some other things.
One threat IMHO is that I think they presently gat away with being, um, clumsy about how they handle some things. I've always striven to get the customer not to say just "Yes, that's what we wanted", but to say "Wow ... that's more than we thought was feasible". I didn't always succeed, but I darned well tried!
Both a business strategy and a product strategy.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2026 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
some excellent points made. (loved your strategy comments gordon.)
how about this concept...critique it.
1..the bb plugin continues getting love and is the 'waiter' serving up pg content for people who have a daw and dont want to learn another. 2..current bb gets users complaints/legacy problems addressed. and some added features for the lovely new bb tracks view. particularly good editing of audio and midi tracks within the view ? and maybe special tracks like... ..a tempo track ..a lyric track ..a chord track ..a special track for creating drum solos and fills etc. 3..for those of us that like rb...a really aggressive development schedule to make it a market slayer. (franklly for me with the 2024 rb improvements i find i dont have to use reaps as much which ive used for years.)
just some ideas. i know ive missed something...lol.
happiness
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 10/19/2412:53 PM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
serving up pg content for people who have a daw and dont want to learn another
FWIW, I personally think that's very important. DAWs are fairly complex and many people find them hard work to learn. If they also already do most of what one wants in a way and to a standard one wants, why should one change?
Typically are reluctant to change just to get a feature. Unless it's really compelling, they'll tend to "manage without".
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2026 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
Charlie, of course there are limits. User limits: like time limit, patience limit, etc. Yes, it's all about convenience. That's why most people buy bread instead of making it. I doubt most of us like to tinker in deep menus to perform basic tasks which are standardized everywhere else in the past 2+ decades.
"It's perfect to record as many tracks as a user needs in BIAB." - with workflow of 1998 maybe it's "perfect". Not for 2025.
P.S. I am sure PGM has further plans for the Track View. I guess we will soon find out
Nobody mentioned there aren't any limits to BIAB. I responded to your assertion specific to recording in BIAB.
Convenience? Just like with bread, I suspect most people buy/download music instead of making music. Don't you?
There's no deep menus to record music in BIAB. There's a button. Actually two. And, if you accidentally select the audio record button when you meant to record midi or if you want to record midi and audio at the same time, select the audio button.
What deep menus are you speaking of? Yes, you have to set up the interface and audio settings once in BIAB just the same as any digital recording device, but once your settings are done, the attached screenshot record menu page is the only screen you'll interact with.
I agree PG Music will continue development for the Tracks View and adding new features, I'll embrace them when they arrive.
Charlie, You maintain that pictures you posted (I am not even talking about actual process here)... conforms to 2024 standards of recording digital track audio? If it's all good by you, I am afraid there is nothing constructive to discuss.
I never said that recording is not possible. Functions are there. Method is badly outdated. All I proposed, that PGM organize existing recording functions with workflow / standards in mind, so average or new user will not be discouraged using it. Given new Track View, it's natural to assume that's where it is heading.
Charlie, feels like a rhetorical request. But if you are sincere, I believe most (if not all) digital audio workstations have: input select, input meter and Arm on individual track headers. It doesn't ask silly questions / pop ups (by default) if you want to simply record - a start position is defined by vertical cursor. Obviously most DAWs have significantly more things happening on track level, but these are the most basic "Standards" that we are missing in BIAB... for now.
Ohh, almost forgot. A full length vertical cursor, instead of a short one we have now that follows the track position. I just hope it was oversight and will be fixed in 2025. That is also a "Standard"
Some are. Like simple Arm and record track. The way it's done now, is not for fainted heart users, who don't want/need another program, and want a simple way to record 1-6 tracks on top of BIAB arrangement. Function is there. Implementation is not user friendly.
Misha,
In relation to recording in BIAB, I personally think it is very friendly these days. It is also consistent with all the other menus in the way BIAB uses "Bars | Beats |Ticks". Knowledge of these bars/beats/ticks is only need if a user decides to punch in a new section or overdub an existing section (#4 on the image below).
Recording BIAB is a one-click, two-settings process. After clicking on the recording icon (#1), the settings window opens and then it's necessary to select what section to record (#2) and which track to record 2 (#3).
Charlie, feels like a rhetorical request. But if you are sincere, I believe most (if not all) digital audio workstations have: input select, input meter and Arm on individual track headers. It doesn't ask silly questions / pop ups (by default) if you want to simply record - a start position is defined by vertical cursor. Obviously most DAWs have significantly more things happening on track level, but these are the most basic "Standards" that we are missing in BIAB... for now.
Ohh, almost forgot. A full length vertical cursor, instead of a short one we have now that follows the track position. I just hope it was oversight and will be fixed in 2025. That is also a "Standard"
No, not a rhetorical request, but sincere. However, you answered appropriately so I understand the basis of your proposal. I do agree PG Music will continue development for the Tracks View and adding new features that I'll use when they arrive.
These most basic "Standards" that are missing in BIAB for now may be a stretch goal in 2025 for the following reasons. First, BIAB isn't a DAW but an accompaniment and arrangement program with some important differences that PG Staff will have to address and consider.
Second, All DAWs record linearly exclusively. Currently and historically, recording in BIAB is linear but it's settings and activation are based on the non-linear display of the Chord Sheet. Examine the record pop-up that displays after the record arm button is pressed on the Main Chord Page Tool Bar to see that recording takes account for having multiple Choruses, repeats and codas.
Third, It will be burdensome, cumbersome and an inequality to suddenly require the users that use the program as it has always worked to change their workflow to accommodate a distinct segment of the customer base. Such a change would not be an enhancement to users that don't use a DAW, or never have recorded any way but the way BIAB has always been since audio recording was implemented. To implement recording solely in the Tracks View is a disservice to other segments of the customer base that aren't DAW dependent.
We may get everything you wish for in DAW features, and I'll adapt to them but I believe there are big hurdles for PG staff to cross to make it so.
"Third, It will be burdensome, cumbersome and an inequality to suddenly require the users that use the program as it has always worked to change their workflow to accommodate a distinct segment of the customer base. Such a change would not be an enhancement to users that don't use a DAW, or never have recorded any way but the way BIAB has always been since audio recording was implemented. To implement recording solely in the Tracks View is a disservice to other segments of the customer base that aren't DAW dependent."
That is only your opinion. And perhaps a few others. Only few.
Sorry Charlie, I care about the future of the BIAB. I don't buy some strange philosophy that program should be soaked in formalin for selected few. I am glad features like partial regeneration, more tracks, near instant regenerations, MTP library and others became a reality despite efforts to derail these and other great ideas at conception. I think it's time to hit a break pedal.
Noel, these "punch in" methods to are not the way most people do basic tracking. It's OK to have such menu somewhere, but for standard recording, arming & input metering should take place at the track level. (Full length) Cursor should be the guide for start recording position.
Mal, I am sorry if I derailed your thread in a way. Topic seemed like an open question. I agree to some extent to what you are saying. But RT's are designed / recoded in such way, so they can be easily manipulated and surely because of that there are some limitations. However by using Partial Regeneration you can get pretty interesting and fulfilling results. A much better fit than initial random generation. Personally, I enjoy the diversity of genres and instrumentals PGM offers yearly.
I am certain there are tracks that you like in BIAB. Why not request similar, or offer concrete suggestion? For example, I would like very much to get more acoustic and electric Reggae, Ska and Surf rock RTs, which are represented very narrowly and are hard (except for drums) to fake with Midi. These have to be played. I am not sure if it happened specifically upon my requests or not, but a few tracks from the genres above were added past few years.
Well, there is always this discussion between diversify or focus on core business. The later is mostly what was the drive behind starting that particular business.
But there is another consideration I want to bring attention to: Strenghten your strengh! (that could also translate into keep your unique selling point unique). There is so much that sets Band in a Box apart, makeing it unique (not just unique to be unique, but delivering what no competitor can do). Biab as it is plays in a league of its own.
Band in a Box UltraPak 2026, Fender Studio Pro, Fender Notion, NI Komplete Audio 6, Nektar Panorama P6, KAWAI VPC1, Presonus Atom, Win 10 64 Pro
aren't we back to a debate we've had many times? if we define BIAB as an amazing auto accompaniment program we can all agree. but is it a DAW? what can't be questioned is that adding DAW like features have made it much more complicated and there are lots of posts about confusing GUIs and 'hidden' menus. and posts that say its very complication is putting off new users.
like lots of forumites i work in BIAB then as quickly as possible get into RB (or the DAW of their choice) which i find much easier to use for DAW like features.
i can almost guarantee that new features won't affect my work flow as BIAB already does what i need, but i will upgrade for new RTs and styles.
I like Bob’s point----don’t need, now, nor will use, new features----just new styles and real tracks. No deep diving, here. Only need good-sounding, realistic, reliable backing tracks. 2024 is working great at the moment.
Bob, Here is the thing. I didn't ask for a Track View. It was an interesting and bold decision by PGM. At first, I saw it as burden, similar to a complexity you are describing. But I gave it some time and it works wonders when it comes to partial regeneration and other types of visualization and editing.
My take is this. If something gets rolled out, it should get finished. At least bare minimum standards, which in this particular case I believe would be input selection, input metering and Arming track on the track headers and a full length vertical cursor instead of a short one they got now.
Yes, we had several big conversations this year on what people wanted for 2025. General consensus concerning software (not the content) was that people want to see know issues fixed + existing features finished and improved, including improving workflow. Getting basic standard functions (that are present in other form already in BIAB) at the track level is "improving existing features" in my view.
I like Bob’s point----don’t need, now, nor will use, new features----just new styles and real tracks. No deep diving, here. Only need good-sounding, realistic, reliable backing tracks. 2024 is working great at the moment.
This ^^^. With perhaps additional and varied RT endings.
BIAB/RealBand 2026 Audiophile | GPO 5 | Windows 11 | Martin TR4501
What is needed, is to allow the user to hide parts of the interface they do not use. It's best to make everything into a tool bar, where they can use the ones they want, and place them where they want! that includes floating the toolbar.
Back to add, that BiaB should reopen to that screen I want. I have a 4 monitor setup and want Biab to always open on screen #3, It doe not! it just defaults to screen 1 (Windows default).
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