1) If bbw4_64.exe is now using the same engine as bbw64.exe you have the same operation but if it's not having to decompress the wma and write into ram, it's just data like midi data, quick, and then you will find you can go to bar 255 in the plugin and it will play right away before Biab has got to generating it into ram. 2) Partial Regeneration = Generate Selected Region (Plugin)
1) It is not keeping the backend in RAM. It loads the backend each time you do a generate for Instruction based generates. On my system it take ~ 4.5 second to load the backend and ~10 seconds to generate a typical style. This still makes it about 4X faster than 2024. BTW it also generates the Wave in the background so you can hear it quicker with the instruction tracks and still drag a wave at the same speed as it always took, which is equal to BBs speed of generating waves. 2) Partial Regeneration <> Generate Selected Region (Plugin) Partial Gen is still on the to do list according to Adar. It currently generates just a section of the track leaving it blank audio before and after and is no faster than it was in the past.
Reply to the OP, it was disappointing that PGM did not hear the very loud cry from the customers asking for improved workflow. This cry was drowned out by the sound of AI last year and so they felt that they needed to react to it at a higher priority. They will eventually get around to the workflow and reliability complaints.
Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).
Using the DAW Plugin the back end is closed after each generate but the Standalone Plugin the back end stays open. I think users need to get onboard with the Plugin as well and not just Biab, it should not be just left up to me and a few other to focus on it. The Plugin/Standalone is the future and so should be given as much, if not more support. I have shown it working with Reaper using the DAW Plugin or a single script to instantly transfer track data to Reaper from Biab better than it can with a normal other DAW rendering all the time to wav then dragging consolidated wav files that can't be edited. Being crossplattform it needs to have the generate code moved into it also, as I said so many times, if I can script scripts to generate tracks or RealDrum tracks in Reaper with zero wav generation surely Adar can do the same in the Plugin. I can't see the Plugin as any other way but the future as the old Biab is stuck in it's 6 months Win, 6 months Mac programming. The more users wake up and see this the better it will be.
I can't go back to the first few years of understanding I had of the products back in 2009 to fit in better now with other users still there. I have done many deep dives over the 16 years, I can't be expected to cancel all that, to not rock the boat and keep it in the past with basic understanding, I can't, I had to have a rest from it all due to ganging up BiaB White Paper Thread from a lot of other users because they didn't have the understanding.
<< I can open a program like EZKey or EZDrummer which I haven't used in months and drag in an intro, verse, pre-chorus, chorus, bridge, est., change the chords and tempo and other parameters and have a rough layout for a song within minutes without ever having to look anything up.>>
In BIAB: One can do the same thing by opening up a MutliStyle with 3 substyles and have a "rough layout of a song" instantly. One can open a PG demo and edit it and achieve the same, One can open a MIDI, txt, SGU, ABC or XML and achieve the same. BIAB can open with all of these different methods while providing RealTracks played by real musicians.
To make BIAB easier to use: Everything you've listed is done automatically in BIAB simply by using MultiStyles and arranging your song by changing Part Markers. I've attached screen shots of a PG MultiStyle with 14 substyles. A user can place any combination of these 14 substyle at any bar and repeat a substyle as many times as they want. Any combination, in any order, as many times as desired. That's a great and easy start to a rough song layout I think.
The demo opens with all of this completed. It would take hours to recreate this demo in any DAW including RealBand which doesn't recognize MultiStyles. MultiStyles are a flagship BIAB program feature only. But if you want a "rough layout for a song within minutes without ever having to look anything up" , give MultiStyles a try. My version has more than 1,000 PG Staff pre-made MultiStyle Styles. Any Style can be made into a MultiStyle in minutes.
Charlie, "you can". The issue is I figured out EZstuff in a matter of hours, this is not the case with BIAB. When you know the program inside out, which took you years, it's easy to fall under the spell that everyone should follow same steps. Software in recent years became much more intuitive, and people expect similar workflow across different titles.
OP title reads: "My only wish is to make Band in a Box easier to use." --- To PGM defense, it seems they are making progress on non-modal approach for Library and tools. They need one good update focusing on making GUI fully modular, where users can create their own "panels". Better sorted and worded menus. And of course change some graphics within those "panels" reflect more modern themes. Content is there, function is there, render / regeneration speed since 2024 is amazing. Perfect time to improve on ease of workflow & design.
Charlie, "you can". The issue is I figured out EZstuff in a matter of hours, this is not the case with BIAB. When you know the program inside out, which took you years, it's easy to fall under the spell that everyone should follow same steps. Software in recent years became much more intuitive, and people expect similar workflow across different titles.
OP title reads: "My only wish is to make Band in a Box easier to use." --- To PGM defense, it seems they are making progress on non-modal approach for Library and tools. They need one good update focusing on making GUI fully modular, where users can create their own "panels". Better sorted and worded menus. And of course change some graphics within those "panels" reflect more modern themes. Content is there, function is there, render / regeneration speed since 2024 is amazing. Perfect time to improve on ease of workflow & design.
That's also reflected in my statements a while back that people who've used a product for a long time learn to not do the things that cause problems newcomers.
Continuing to progress non-modal dialogs is good. Dockable and/or pinable/hideable panels would be a good progress further.
Some of those kinds of change fit into the class "By choice, I wouldn't start from here".
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
Charlie, "you can". The issue is I figured out EZstuff in a matter of hours, this is not the case with BIAB. When you know the program inside out, which took you years, it's easy to fall under the spell that everyone should follow same steps. Software in recent years became much more intuitive, and people expect similar workflow across different titles.
OP title reads: "My only wish is to make Band in a Box easier to use." --- To PGM defense, it seems they are making progress on non-modal approach for Library and tools. They need one good update focusing on making GUI fully modular, where users can create their own "panels". Better sorted and worded menus. And of course change some graphics within those "panels" reflect more modern themes. Content is there, function is there, render / regeneration speed since 2024 is amazing. Perfect time to improve on ease of workflow & design.
My thoughts exactly.
Principal: Your child always causes trouble in school. Me: My child causes trouble at home, do I ever call you?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Open that demo and play it. Then reconstruct it your way with software, red curser lines, and the tracks view of your favorite DAW. You will experience the difference between understanding audio generation and Post-generation editing. BIAB is not a DAW and while it is a marvelous tool for generating tracks for manipulation in a DAW, it's better at creating tracks internally that are as complex and of equal quality in minutes that takes hours to duplicate in a DAW. The demo proves it. More proof is 100% of songs, lessons, and demos by PG staff is finished as a BIAB SGU file. No cakewalk, Reaper, Logic, Pro-tools , EZ Drummer, or other EZstuff to be found. The DAW'sers are doing it backwards.
In BIAB, no need for a fully modular GUI, or need for users to create their own "panels". No need for better sorted or better worded menus. Learn how to use the program as it's designed rather than try to mold it into a post editing software program. It did not take me years to learn BIAB inside out because I learned it's purpose, it's design and I used Multi Track recording principles rather than back into DAW editing of exported tracks.
<< OP title reads: "My only wish is to make Band in a Box easier to use." >>
I don't think if the OP or you open that demo and then try to replicate it by backing into it manually generating multiple instrument tracks, comping them, manually arranging them in the tracks view of your DAW into that same arrangement, neither of you will come and post how much faster and easier EZ Keys or Reaper can make that same stereo final mix.
You, the OP or anyone else, regardless of experience with BIAB, can use that single demo as a template to create their own song, in their preferred, key, tempo and chord progression today all without years of struggling with menus, windows, cursers and such.
I think there is room for improvement as Rustyspoon has described.
Two quick points:
For my programming students’ final project, I required them to do a short report on the ‘any idiot test’. Take the next person walking down the hall, have them sit in front of your program with no manual or instruction, and watch what they do. It helps.
I pay close attention to the Beginner’s Forum here. The questions they ask tell you a lot about what we have forgotten it was like when we started. In my case, that’s over thirty years ago.
Wait, what? You need to use a comma to enter two chords in half of a spreadsheet cell? Then you use Shift+Enter to hear the chord on beat one or Tab to beat three but there’s no way to hear beat two? You’re kidding, right? Well, OK, I’m sure I would have thought of that. And it works out because anything you put in 3/4 in the right side of the spreadsheet cell isn’t played anyway. Got it.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
For my programming students’ final project, I required them to do a short report on the ‘any idiot test’. Take the next person walking down the hall, have them sit in front of your program with no manual or instruction, and watch what they do. It helps.
There are a couple of corollaries to that.
* Almost the worst people to try to do the "any idiot" activity are those who actrually worked on the design, because there's a natural tendency to test the things for which one has already seen the risk, but completely miss the "why would anyone do that?" behaviours.
* People who are clever and try to second-guess what might be possible can be equally disruptive to ones precious designs. (actually I welcome it ... better a slight embarrassement now than chaos after the product is released.)
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
Charlie, All you are trying to prove is that BIAB works for you.
"In BIAB, no need for a fully modular GUI, or need for users to create their own "panels". No need for better sorted or better worded menus. Learn how to use the program as it's designed rather than try to mold it into a post editing software program."
Ever heard of the term "progress"? One of the reasons why BIAB is so slow to adopt to new realities is because some people are too attached to their own way of doing things, threatening not to upgrade, publicly dismissing new features that obviously make life easier for most, and pretty much don't care about the longevity of the software ignoring the simple fact that it depends on new customers and their expectations and their way of thinking.
PS....."I used Multi Track recording principles". Never heard of these
yes bb needs to progress...i do agree but at the same time i see what charlie is getting at.
my own major concern is from a software engineering technical viewpoint ie...will additional feature implementations result in a code base that is very difficult to maintain and will the added features result in bb not being useable on old clunky pc's that a lot of project studios still use.
i worry like in industry ive seen if more and more features will result in bb haveing probs running on old clunky pc's. so then users will complain that they are being forced into pricey new pc's etc. often this stuff is a catch 22 for a developer with a huge variety of users all over the world. whatever a dev does someone wont be happy.
personally i feel keeping bb to its core mission of auto accompany and adding fancy daw features to rb might be a valid alternative thinking about it. there are lots of added features i would like but i ask myself as many are daw features isnt rb a better vehicle ??
merry xmas.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 12/09/2412:36 PM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
Well at some point people have to buy new PCs just to keep up with time. Just compare it with other tech areas e.g. mobile phones etc.or many other software product companies. Mostly their latest products can't run efficiently on a ten year old PC with limited memory or disc or hardware. As a user I can't expect the latest software to be able to run efficiently or at all on a ten year old computer (compare it with other products e.g. Windows 11 it can't be installed on older PCs that don't live up to the requirements from MS).
BIAB 2026, Studio One 7 Pro, Song Master Pro, Win11 Home. i7-9700K CPU, 32GB, ESI MAYA44eX, ZOOM UAC-2, Guitar Pro 8, Transcribe, (EZKeys2, EZD3, SD3, EZBass, EZMix3) Amateur: fiddle, guitar, vocal, beginner on bass.
Reminds me of a Seinfeld episode where one of the group had just finished eating when he noticed a line of people waiting to get in the restaurant. I can't recall the exact line but it was something like "How in the world could these people be hungry? I couldn't eat another bite!"
Reminds me of a Seinfeld episode where one of the group had just finished eating when he noticed a line of people waiting to get in the restaurant. I can't recall the exact line but it was something like "How in the world could these people be hungry? I couldn't eat another bite!"
If anyone should feel insulted, it's OP, who merely wants "to make Band in a Box easier to use".
A_R, if you are reading this, please don't be discouraged by this little debate. You made valid points. Most (not all) people here want workflow improvements. Unfortunately progress is slow, but it's happening. A good number of suggestions from this forum section made into releases, despite systematic attempts by (very) few to diminish genuine, well articulated requests for the better.
... please don't be discouraged by this little debate. You made valid points.
Indeed.
This is a bit like learning to swim or learning ride a bicycle. Once you can do it, it's easy, but it's also easy to forget how hard it was when one first tried.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
'Well at some point people have to buy new PCs just to keep up with time.'
yep thats a very good point...however lets bear in mind respectfully...
..there are lots of very poor folks around the world that simply cant afford a new pc. ..pg could lose a lot of revenue if lots of people around the world cant run the music apps on their clunky pc's.
frankly i dont think there is a good solution to the conundrum. lets not forget mba 101...good ole Henry Ford who was successful by pumping out cars that the masses could afford.
i would love certain new features in both bb and rb.
in the past knowing that lots of people have clunky pc's ive suggested pg apps come with an 'early warning system'...just a simple message 'your pc is getting overloaded'. reason being ive seen lots of people new to music production sometimes not realise one cant keep on loading up oodles of tracks and plugins as things often get 'pear shaped'....or crash city. some plugins are very very demanding on pc resources for example.
i hope you find my comments balanced and fair.
we had the same probs in industry ie achieving a carefull balance tween a plethora of user needs and the realities of the market and what could be done in code.
merry xmas.
om
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
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MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
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Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
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(actually I welcome it ... better a slight embarrassement now than chaos after the product is released.)
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