Fellow “bottom feeders”, as Marty so accurately calls us, been thinking about The Who recently. Any comments on this diagram?
All these years later it might be easy to dismiss this as ho-hum, but at one point bi-amping didn’t exist. I wonder how many bands and audio engineers that came later have benefited from the Ox’s thinking?
I understand Geddy Lee and Victor Wooten were two that were influenced by him
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
Decades ago... I remember reading an article in Guitar Player Magazine on the guitar and bass rigs used by The Who on stage. Their main PA system was running over 100,000 watts. I don't remember the details on Townsend's guitar rig, just that it was extremely loud. The thing that stood out was Entwistle's bass rig. It was over 9000 watts and bi-amped. If I recall, it was loud enough that they rarely ever needed to run it through the PA, depending of course on the particular venue. Townsend became very concerned about his stage volume in later years, fearing he was going deaf from the stage volume of the early years. Ya Think? But you have to admit that a wall of Marshall amps running wide open with a Les Paul driving them sounds really, really good.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
I hear ya. Back in the day FM Djs on the coolest station on the dial would dribble in bits and pieces about The Who being "the loudest band" touring.
I too have wondered what exactly all that sound did to ear drums, some may have used plugs, but still we're talking some serious dBs. And the stage layouts had them standing directly in front of walls of cabs.
Nonetheless, they were trail blazers for sure.
"Ain't got no distractions, can't hear no buzzes and bells Don't see, no lights a-flashing, plays by sense of smell"
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
Deep Purple was the loudest band I listened to live back in the day. Some other band had a painfully loud flute, most likely Jethro Tull but I don't remember. Golden Earring had a flute player but all I remember was Radar Love with a bass line Bass Thumper likely remembers.
With today's high-quality passive crossover networks, bi-amping is of less value perhaps than in the past for stereo speakers.
The active crossover network in the drawing is perhaps a better way to do things for a really loud bass. The Sun cabinets would sound better if the low-frequency had 15-inch speakers. I assume 12s in the drawing.
With the known hearing loss, the days of an amp cranked up on 11 are pretty much over. Perhaps out in the country on a private ranch with about 10,000 acres...lol
It is a problem because nothing sounds like an amp cranked up on 11 and a guitar will never play the same as it does with the volume turned up. The cops used to come by with db meters and issue tickets for playing above a certain db level in Houston.
Billy
Last edited by Planobilly; 12/12/2404:29 PM.
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig? “Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
Deep Purple was the loudest band I listened to live back in the day. Some other band had a painfully loud flute, most likely Jethro Tull but I don't remember. Golden Earring had a flute player but all I remember was Radar Love with a bass line Bass Thumper likely remembers. The active crossover network in the drawing is perhaps a better way to do things for a really loud bass. The Sun cabinets would sound better if the low-frequency had 15-inch speakers. I assume 12s in the drawing.
Smoke on the Water was a smash with me and my "crew", I can understand how Deep Purple could blow the roof off. And I haven't listened to Radar Love in years, another great one.
I don't know the speaker size in the diagram, I just scraped something that looked reasonable.
At the risk of letting my imagination go too untethered, here is how I like to envision the interaction.
The Ox stood in the dimly lit pub with his favorite guitar tech and a few industry executives, his leather jacket creaking as he crossed his arms. He finished up his pint and slammed his tankard on the pub table. "Look, mates," he began, his British accent cutting through the smoke-filled room, "I've been lugging around your amps for years, and they're just not cutting it anymore. Every gig, it's the same story—distortion where there shouldn't be and my high end is practically non-existent. I need gear that can handle the raw power of rock and roll, something that won't crumble under the weight of a proper bass line. We’re talking about pushing some serious air. I need something that can keep up with Pete and I’ve been thinking about an approach I call Bi-Amping. If you can't deliver what I need, I'm afraid I'll have to take my business elsewhere. My fans deserve better, my band deserves better and I deserve better. Call me when you got something for me to test and we’ll work out the bugs.” The executives looked at each other with embarrassment written on their faces and one of them said “You got it mate; we’ll be in touch.”
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
Bi amping is even common in most powered studio monitors these days. I know mine are.
I almost missed this; thanks for pointing this out Brian.
Here's what my monitor owner's manual says.
The bi-amplified design, with individual power amplifiers for the low frequency and high frequency transducers, uses efficient high-output Class-D integrated power amplifiers to provide high SPL (sound pressure level).
I'm thinking there may not be an absolute straight line back to Enstwistle on this (digital switching vs analog) but I'd like to believe that there is at least some connection . . . not sure.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
We have a lot of options nowadays on how electronics are designed. Many if not most decisions revolve around cost. Bi-amping is a good and well-known solution to the sound pressure issue. There are other solutions that will work but cost more to design and implement.
The idea is to get the correct frequencies directed to the correct speaker and to drive those speakers hard enough to produce the sound pressure level desired.
The electronic components for passive crossover are pretty simple, being capacitors, inductors, and resistors. There are both component and design issues that define how well any of this works. More complex better designs cost more money to produce.
All very cool stuff if you have an interest in electronics.
Billy
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig? “Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
The electronic components for passive crossover are pretty simple, being capacitors, inductors, and resistors. There are both component and design issues that define how well any of this works. More complex better designs cost more money to produce.
All very cool stuff if you have an interest in electronics.
Indeed, this is all cool stuff. I'm always amazed at what can be done by controlling the "simple" electron and also the "humble" bit (in software).
Although this is not my domain, I've worked with many circuit designers over the years. This field is so large that there are several sub-domains where techs and engineers specialize in analog, digital, microcircuits, power supplies, etc.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
Introducing XPro Styles PAK 10 – Now Available for Windows Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
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Introducing XPro Styles PAK 10 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 10 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 28 RealTracks and RealDrums!
Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.
Here’s just a small sampling of what you can look forward to in XPro Styles PAK 10: Soft indie folk worship songs, bumpin’ country boogies, gospel praise breaks, hard rockin’ pop, funky disco grooves, smooth Latin jazz pop, bossa nova fusion, western swing, alternative hip-hop, cool country funk, and much more!
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XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Introducing Xtra Styles PAK 21 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest Xtra Styles PAK installment—the all new Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher)!
Rejoice, one and all, for Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box® is here! We’re serving up 200 brand spankin’ new styles to delight your musical taste buds! The first three courses are the classics you’ve come to know and love, including offerings from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, but, not to be outdone, this year’s fourth course is bro country! A wide ranging genre, you can find everything from hip-hop, uptempo outlaw country, hard hitting rock, funk, and even electronica, all with that familiar bro country flair. The dinner bell has been rung, pickup up Xtra Styles PAK 21 today!
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Along with version 2026, we've released an incredible lineup of new content! There's 202 new RealTracks, brand-new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two new RealDrums Stems sets, XPro Styles PAK 10, Xtra Styles PAK 21, and much more!
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XPro and Xtra Styles PAKs Special Extended Until August 31st!
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