So, are we making music? Or are we searching for music?
How long do you spend listening to hundreds of search results each time you make music?
After listening to them, do you still have the mood to make music?
Faced with thousands or hundreds of search results, I believe that few people in the world would click to listen.
<< So, are we making music? Or are we searching for music? >>
Neither. I answered the question for this post "Make RealTrack more versatile?"
My response is about auditioning a RealTrack instrument in all the various ways it was recorded for PG Music. I made an example where once the RealTracks have been loaded into BIAB, this process 'auditions' 18 Quinn Bachard 12 string acoustic guitar RealTracks over a chord progression. Once the RealTracks are loaded, playing the SGU file allows the user to hear all 18 of these instruments in one minute to aid in the selection of one or more of these instruments to use in what in most cases is a BIAB music project that has already been chosen by the user.
<< How long do you spend listening to hundreds of search results each time you make music? >>
I'm able to use BIAB search tools in a way that always reduces the search results to less than 100. Most searches are less than two minutes. There's 11,929 Styles and 4,099 RealTrack instruments in my version of BIAB. I never start a search with either of those numbers.
<<After listening to them, do you still have the mood to make music? >>
Always
<< Faced with thousands or hundreds of search results, I believe that few people in the world would click to listen >>
The 'audition' SGU file is 18 instruments playing over a one minute period.
BIAB has many options and tools, categories and ways to search that can produce reasonable and manageable search results.
Last edited by Charlie Fogle; 01/05/2507:51 AM. Reason: Update comment.
<< But RT3182 has not changed. How to make RT3182 change, this is my question.
Music style change and RT3182 change are not the same thing.>>
RT 3182 has changed. What the session musician has recorded for PG Music isn't a single strumming pattern for all of the music he recorded that became the audio data in the RealTracks folder. He recorded many different strumming patterns, chord changes, chord progressions so that he- the musician, can play the same instrument, which can be used and sound correct and match the playing style of many different genres of music. By changing MultiStyles, not only will his playing vary, but the playing style surrounding his playing and even some instruments will change which will vary the dynamics, rhythm, tempo, key, feel and groove of the music as a total.
Are you claiming that a single RT, 3182, has different strumming patterns/riffs that are only exposed in certain RealStyles? So, changing the style that contains RT 3182 to a different style that also contains RT 3182 will cause RT 3182 to play differently? If that is your claim can you provide a simple SGU that demonstrates this and shows that RT 3182 actually changes based on the style it is used in?
RT3182 is Quinn Bachard playing acoustic rhythm guitar in a "grunge" style with an even feel at 90 BPM. He changes up his playing a bit, and he'll do shots and holds, but there's not a LOT of variation. I *believe* this is true for all styles that use RT3182.
This has always been my understanding too. But Charlie appears to be claiming that RT 3182 changes based on the style it is used in. If that is correct that could be quite interesting as an option to change up an RT.
<< But RT3182 has not changed. How to make RT3182 change, this is my question.
Music style change and RT3182 change are not the same thing.>>
RT 3182 has changed. What the session musician has recorded for PG Music isn't a single strumming pattern for all of the music he recorded that became the audio data in the RealTracks folder. He recorded many different strumming patterns, chord changes, chord progressions so that he- the musician, can play the same instrument, which can be used and sound correct and match the playing style of many different genres of music. By changing MultiStyles, not only will his playing vary, but the playing style surrounding his playing and even some instruments will change which will vary the dynamics, rhythm, tempo, key, feel and groove of the music as a total.
Are you claiming that a single RT, 3182, has different strumming patterns/riffs that are only exposed in certain RealStyles? So, changing the style that contains RT 3182 to a different style that also contains RT 3182 will cause RT 3182 to play differently? If that is your claim can you provide a simple SGU that demonstrates this and shows that RT 3182 actually changes based on the style it is used in?
No, I'm not claiming that. That would require having recorded music that specifically did that. My statement intent is the same as how you and DC Ron understand it. RealTracks vary and are not repeating patterns similar to c7 midi patterns on a keyboard which is how I interpreted babymusic saying the strumming is boring and the same.
RT3182 is the same instrument being played by the same session musician while sounding completely different in one of these Styles than it sounds in the current Style you are using.
How will RT3182 sound "completely different" in a different style? RT3182 will sound exactly the same because it did not change! The overall mix will sound different of course but RT3182 will not.
Originally Posted by Charlie Fogle
RT3182 has hundreds of variations recorded for many different genres of music.
I just ran a test* of regenerating this RT on a track and at most I heard just a handful of variations and most of these were pretty subtle. Some of them sounded a bit "off" in how they were played or how they were recorded, like they didn't quite match the previous and following bar (I have seen this a lot with BIAB over the years.) I certainly didn't hear "hundreds of variations" so I'd have to say the NI guitars, with their limited sets of patterns, would compare quite favorably especially since you can mix pattern sets in NI using the same guitar. On the other hand, the RT 3182 sounded more human to me, maybe because of the issues I heard?
* Test was done in 6 different keys using all chords of that key. Song was 16 bars and was regenerated approximately 20 times in each key.
I think BIAB has created a lot of valuable REALTRACK, but it has not been really used well. There are hundreds of GB of RT content on the hard drive, but it cannot be quickly found and flexibly used. This is a sad story.
I agree with you 100%! Many forum members have requested better search tools.
One request I made some time ago (that was pretty much ignored) was for PGM to curate the vast collection of RealStyles into sets that play nicely together in a song to give it some dynamics without sounding like a completely different song just started! The A and B sections is a nice option but often it changes very little. And, before someone jumps in and starts promoting multistyles, there are far too few of these to properly resolve this issue.
1) RealTrack = recorded bits of a specific instrument 2) RealStyle = professionally curated collection of RealTracks that sound good together 3) RealSong = professionally curated collection of RealStyles that sound good together and provide dynamics/variety
#1 and #2 exist and are fantastic! How about adding #3 as well? It helps BIAB users AND provides something else for PGM to sell!
I have to add that, while I really truly appreciate when expert users offer work-arounds, these are often complex or require installing additional programs so they often do not provide resolution to the reported issue for regular users.
............................................. I certainly didn't hear "hundreds of variations" so I'd have to say the NI guitars, with their limited sets of patterns, would compare quite favorably especially since you can mix pattern sets in NI using the same guitar. On the other hand, the RT 3182 sounded more human to me, maybe because of the issues I heard?
.........................................
FWIW: A number of MIDI guitar strum programs have the same or similar capabilities as NI. You can achieve similar results with either BiaB's MIDI tracks and/or converting RTs into MIDI, that is if you have the software to convert polyphonic audio to MIDI. That and choosing a good MIDI guitar sound source can sound great. To make it more human some humanizing and maybe some CCs will work, not to mention that you can easily edit MIDI tracks.
Life is short so make sure you spend as much time as possible on the Internet arguing with strangers.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Using different RTs that are similar or switching from strum to picked, and back at A and B markers, using playable RT methods can do a lot. It really does not matter whether you use Midi or RTs or create your own User tracks you are going to have to use ingenuity and creativity to make them sound like you want and get a "real" track. These are just tools and like a hammer and a screwdriver it is the skill of the craftsman that make the finished project sound great.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
I think BIAB has created a lot of valuable REALTRACK, but it has not been really used well. There are hundreds of GB of RT content on the hard drive, but it cannot be quickly found and flexibly used. This is a sad story.
I agree with you 100%! Many forum members have requested better search tools.
One request I made some time ago (that was pretty much ignored) was for PGM to curate the vast collection of RealStyles into sets that play nicely together in a song to give it some dynamics without sounding like a completely different song just started! The A and B sections is a nice option but often it changes very little. And, before someone jumps in and starts promoting multistyles, there are far too few of these to properly resolve this issue.
1) RealTrack = recorded bits of a specific instrument 2) RealStyle = professionally curated collection of RealTracks that sound good together 3) RealSong = professionally curated collection of RealStyles that sound good together and provide dynamics/variety
#1 and #2 exist and are fantastic! How about adding #3 as well? It helps BIAB users AND provides something else for PGM to sell!
I have to add that, while I really truly appreciate when expert users offer work-arounds, these are often complex or require installing additional programs so they often do not provide resolution to the reported issue for regular users.
I disagree with babymusic's sad story that RealTrack content cannot be quickly found. Everyone may know this, but it's not been mentioned. If you know it, fine. But if you haven't tried it, you may find it to be useful. I use it and it's easy to organize RealTracks into manageable searches.
To summarize. RealTracks are grouped into sets. There are currently 467 sets. The sets are organized into specific genre and styles. Searching by these sets, search results produce instruments and styles that work together nicely. I've posted screenshots of search results for a 'Country Ballad" with 'Solo' instrument.
All 467 RT sets can be found in a list in the What add-ons do I have Window. All 467 RT Sets are listed, described and can be auditioned solo'd or in a band (Style) from the top of every forum page by clicking on Band-in-a-Box Windows icon and the RealTracks icon to open the RealTracks Set page.
On the RealTracks Sets Page, each RT set has a video link to a short demo of the RealTracks playing with a Style that is named and described . Each instrument is also identified.
In the MultiPicker with RealTracks selected, Click on the # button and select RealTracks Sets in this Range. For the 'Country Ballad' set, enter 2 for that set.
MultiPicker results display six RT's used in that set. 3 acoustic guitars, electric guitar, Pedal Steel, and bass.
Searching for a country solo, RealTrack set 350 is a RealTrack set dedicated to Country Ballad solos in with two RealTracks recorded at different tempos.
There are five other blocks of sets in the What add-ons do I have Window that can be used to launch searches broken into manageable groups.
Charlie, thank you for this in depth explanation with images. That will be helpful to me gaining better understanding of the system. I appreciate the time you took to post it.
The image you provided showing clicking on the "#" button and then picking a RealTrack SET (or range of sets) was brilliant. I just had gone through a PGM chat and they did not know that this feature was the way to filter specifically for everything included in a SET. Another brilliant tip from you!
Originally Posted by Charlie Fogle
Originally Posted by JohnJohnJohn
Originally Posted by babymusic
I think BIAB has created a lot of valuable REALTRACK, but it has not been really used well. There are hundreds of GB of RT content on the hard drive, but it cannot be quickly found and flexibly used. This is a sad story.
I agree with you 100%! Many forum members have requested better search tools.
One request I made some time ago (that was pretty much ignored) was for PGM to curate the vast collection of RealStyles into sets that play nicely together in a song to give it some dynamics without sounding like a completely different song just started! The A and B sections is a nice option but often it changes very little. And, before someone jumps in and starts promoting multistyles, there are far too few of these to properly resolve this issue.
1) RealTrack = recorded bits of a specific instrument 2) RealStyle = professionally curated collection of RealTracks that sound good together 3) RealSong = professionally curated collection of RealStyles that sound good together and provide dynamics/variety
#1 and #2 exist and are fantastic! How about adding #3 as well? It helps BIAB users AND provides something else for PGM to sell!
I have to add that, while I really truly appreciate when expert users offer work-arounds, these are often complex or require installing additional programs so they often do not provide resolution to the reported issue for regular users.
I disagree with babymusic's sad story that RealTrack content cannot be quickly found. Everyone may know this, but it's not been mentioned. If you know it, fine. But if you haven't tried it, you may find it to be useful. I use it and it's easy to organize RealTracks into manageable searches.
To summarize. RealTracks are grouped into sets. There are currently 467 sets. The sets are organized into specific genre and styles. Searching by these sets, search results produce instruments and styles that work together nicely. I've posted screenshots of search results for a 'Country Ballad" with 'Solo' instrument.
All 467 RT sets can be found in a list in the What add-ons do I have Window. All 467 RT Sets are listed, described and can be auditioned solo'd or in a band (Style) from the top of every forum page by clicking on Band-in-a-Box Windows icon and the RealTracks icon to open the RealTracks Set page.
On the RealTracks Sets Page, each RT set has a video link to a short demo of the RealTracks playing with a Style that is named and described . Each instrument is also identified.
In the MultiPicker with RealTracks selected, Click on the # button and select RealTracks Sets in this Range. For the 'Country Ballad' set, enter 2 for that set.
MultiPicker results display six RT's used in that set. 3 acoustic guitars, electric guitar, Pedal Steel, and bass.
Searching for a country solo, RealTrack set 350 is a RealTrack set dedicated to Country Ballad solos in with two RealTracks recorded at different tempos.
There are five other blocks of sets in the What add-ons do I have Window that can be used to launch searches broken into manageable groups.
I disagree with babymusic's sad story that RealTrack content cannot be quickly found.
Well, I sometimes disagree with Charlie Fogle's rose-colored-glasses view of BIAB in many of his responses to wishlist & improvement suggestions!
Originally Posted by Charlie Fogle
All 467 RT sets can be found in a list in the What add-ons do I have Window.
Not sure what you are saying about the add-ons window as there is no searching or linkage there to anything I can see.
Originally Posted by Charlie Fogle
All 467 RT Sets are listed, described and can be auditioned solo'd or in a band (Style) from the top of every forum page by clicking on Band-in-a-Box Windows icon and the RealTracks icon to open the RealTracks Set page.
So, we should leave BIAB and use the PGM website to find RealTracks? Again, no searching feature there, just an enormous list that is handy to have but doesn't really make searching much easier.
Originally Posted by Charlie Fogle
In the MultiPicker with RealTracks selected, Click on the # button and select RealTracks Sets in this Range. For the 'Country Ballad' set, enter 2 for that set. MultiPicker results display six RT's used in that set. 3 acoustic guitars, electric guitar, Pedal Steel, and bass.
If I'm seeking compatible RTs for my chosen style how does this help me do that? I would already know which RTs are included in my chosen style.
Originally Posted by Charlie Fogle
Searching for a country solo, RealTrack set 350 is a RealTrack set dedicated to Country Ballad solos in with two RealTracks recorded at different tempos.
I don't follow how you got here!
Originally Posted by Charlie Fogle
There are five other blocks of sets in the What add-ons do I have Window that can be used to launch searches broken into manageable groups.
Again, referencing useful screen with info but no facility to "launch searches" that I can see.
Charlie, you seem to have a deep understanding of BIAB and your detailed explanations are interesting and often quite helpful. Where I think you might be a little light is in understanding that many (most?) of us do not have nor want that deep level of understanding. And instead we are looking for a quick way to find stuff and get on with the music. I have studied and designed GUIs and one of the key points there is if a user must learn and remember or look up a complex set instructions in order to accomplish a task that GUI has failed. I feel this is a similar situation. There is a good reason tech books have both a table of contents AND an index even though you could make a seemingly reasonable case that only the TOC is really necessary!
Anyway, thank you for taking the time to try and explain things and I apologize if I am just being dense and not seeing this as the solution to the OP's original request.
I'm fine with disagreement. We all have different workflows and use BIAB in many different ways. Disagree but remain civil as you always do. Nothing I post about a BIAB process should be taken personally. It's about the program not the person.
The Add-ons Window is simply a place where all 467 RT sets are listed in an easy to reach place from anywhere a person is in the BIAB program. The Add-ons Window provides the numbers necessary to launch a detailed search confined to limited parameters.
Once you know a specific set to search, opening the MultiPicker Library focused on the RealTracks tab, clicking on the # button opens a dialog where you can search by RealTrack set ranges.
RealTrack sets are grouped and sold separately by PG Music as RealPaks. There are 21 RealPak sets, each selling for $79. Glancing at the Add-ons Page confirms if a particular range of RealTracks are included in your BIAB package or not.
As an example, RealPak Country 1 contains 14 RealTracks Sets with 87 styles added to the purchasers BIAB program. On the PG Music RealTracks page you can access from any page in the forum, you can read the details of the RealPak and also watch a 15 minute video to hear and see demos of all the RealTrack sets and 87 Styles. All 21 RealPak packages are set up the same way. A longtime user like myself and many others, I likely already own these RealTrack sets. I can quickly verify if I do or not by glancing at the Add-ons page. These RealPaks are self-contained search engines for Styles and RealTracks. The same can be said for Bonus Paks, 49 Paks, Xtra Styles, XPro Paks, etc.
My current BIAB version has 11,929 Styles and 4,099 RealTracks. I never begin a search with those numbers. I've found or developed methods to use the Paks listed and other similar tools that allows me to search in groups limiting genres, instruments and styles guiding me quickly to finding what I need. Rarely does a search extend beyond 2-3 minutes. My earlier post was to share my technique in hopes it would help others the same as its benefited me.
<< If I'm seeking compatible RTs for my chosen style how does this help me do that? I would already know which RTs are included in my chosen style. >>
BIAB has search parameters to look for similar styles to the current style. Using this search is a good method to almost immediately find compatible RT's. Create a list of similar styles to use as a search. All of the similar styles will have 4-5 compatible RealTracks that are different from the RT's in the current chosen style. This search is particularly good for finding a compatible soloist. This is limited and precise result of styles that are similar to your current style. Why not search these styles first for compatible RealTracks rather than start a RealTrack search of 4,099 RealTracks? Overwhelmingly, I normally find my best style, best additional and compatible RealTracks, SuperMidi instruments to add or substitute and any soloist or soloist replacement within minutes from my first target search.
I personally think a collection of styles and RealTracks that have been put together into RealPaks by PG Music staff and sells for $79 is a gold mine search engine for a targeted search.
I am a person who cannot read English. I have been learning to use BIAB since 2019. I am reflecting some of my true feelings. Maybe what I said is a bit direct, but please understand me.
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With Band-in-a-Box® 2026, we've released 202 incredible new RealTracks (in sets 468-488) in a variety of genres—featuring your most requested styles!
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MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
Playable RealTracks Set 5
RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
iOS Android Band-in-a-Box® App
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MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
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