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There is a concept video here that includes how the progress bar might work. This was produced before the new layout was available.
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The problem with current implementation, that even if it has a clear indicator, it's too condensed and will not focus-follow the reference point. Here is what I mean:
In linear setting, navigator slider would sync to the cursor, making it (cursor) the focused reference point and by moving the navigator slider you would control your cursor through the project (like a puppet) much more efficiently than scrolling through the project. You stop slider, cursor stops making it a new focal point and playback marker.
In Chord view it should follow the outline (selection) of the measure. With current implementation it will only display a single cell on click, then you blindly poke at the thing again, hoping to get somewhere close to where you imagine it correlates to.
Last edited by Rustyspoon#; 01/20/25 06:10 AM.
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I think the Chords Timeline work great, but I would like to see perhaps, text to show 1 verse, 2,verse, etc... as well as where you have some kind of action, like Fills, Push/Hold, etc... Maybe R1, R2, R3 for the Repeat signs, and a "F", "P", "H" and for more than 1 action in a bar "$" (used a dollar sign, could be whatever works best). I can easily zero in on a bar in my song, if needed. ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hWMzFg1.gif) Robert 
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Jim, in minimalistic view, what you call a "time line" (under transport buttons) was done in a manner of navigator. Unfortunately it was poorly executed and is pretty much useless as navigator or timeline on medium size project of about 70 bars or more. Don't confuse with a Big button view (the one I presume you are using), where the timeline actually serves a purpose. What I proposed is do a true Slider Navigator instead of "whatever you want to call it" item below transport buttons in minimalistic view and do a full length time line across the screen (like one in Big button view). Does that make sense? Rustyspoon#, Your clarification makes perfect sense and I understand your suggestion much better. Thanks for taking time to respond and clarify. I appreciate your courtesy very much. I think robertw's idea to extend the timeline or navigator to full screen width is a winner. Full screen width would certainly enhance the Minimal Screen Mode. What I don't understand in robertw's mock-up is how multiple choruses will be addressed. BiaB is fairly unique in using choruses and codas in song presentation instead of a linear song presentation like a DAW. AudioTrack's 2017 concept video presented many good ideas and received many positive comments. Hard to believe the video was presented that many years ago. Musocity has also been suggesting GUI changes for years. It appears Simon hears the choir. I believe a timeline fulfills two functions, (1) clearly identify where the cursor resides in a song project and (2) provide an easy way to navigate within a song project. Can anyone think of any other function(s) a timeline performs?
Last edited by Jim Fogle; 01/20/25 09:47 AM. Reason: Response to robertw mock-up.
Jim Fogle - 2025 BiaB (Build 1128) RB (Build 5) - Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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I have to say I liked what the video posted by Musocity had to say. There are some good (IMHO) end-user observations about what works well and what works less well. I think Reaper pretty much started with an intent to make the GUI highly configurable and it's much easier to do so that way than in retrospect.
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[quote=Rustyspoon#]
... how multiple choruses will be addressed.[/b] BiaB is fairly unique in using choruses and codas in song presentation instead of a linear song presentation like a DAW. The repeat's are your choruses, From what I'm seeing, In the chords view, I have the song wrapped (Showing the repletes) but the timeline has everything unfolded, from start to finish. Just take a sing that is wrapped and in the chords view. Now randomly select a bar through the Chord sheet and you will see the song timeline move as well. Now if you select on the timeline, your repeat color (Mine is blue), and go through each blue, you will see it jumping to different locations. I did this and can see that the timeline is UN-folded. I would just like to see more that what it currently has. Having some kind of indicator of what part of the song I'm in would help. Robert
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I have to say I liked what the video posted by Musocity had to say.
There are some good (IMHO) end-user observations about what works well and what works less well. Also, understand that's his point of view (He has a website, and this and other videos he makes, is more than letting people know how Reaper has evolved, it's also for $$$) I would like to keep this on topic about BiaB and PGM's programs. To me it's not about how we should make BiaB more like "XXXDAW" Now I also, believe that when people ask for more features, and others say they do not want more DAW features. They are wrong. Why, what is a DAW, it's a Digital Audio Workstation. That what BiaB is! Like I'm a doctor, you ask what kind? So... I have a DAW, you ask what kind? Robert
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No, current suggestion (and current implementation) is not a "winner" unless behavior of cursor and scrolling is changed. See video. The key differences between a sliding navigator and current implementation. Lets be clear of what it does and how it can be done differently for it to become a true navigator.
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... Why, what is a DAW, it's a Digital Audio Workstation. That what BiaB is! Like I'm a doctor, you ask what kind? So... I have a DAW, you ask what kind? Robert No robertw. Unfortunately your analogy is wrong. While there are many specialized doctors, there are not that many different types of DAW. Per the PG Music +++ "What Is Band-in-a-Box" +++ videos and the PG Music +++
homepage +++ Band-in-a-Box is a song arrangement tool. Rustyspoon#, Thanks for taking time to make the video above. I agree that the cursor should follow where you click in the timeline and the window should center on the cursor position. Sometimes a video is worth a thousand words.
Last edited by Jim Fogle; 01/20/25 11:45 AM.
Jim Fogle - 2025 BiaB (Build 1128) RB (Build 5) - Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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@Jim Fogle, By saying that BiaB is a DAW, It's because BiaB is working with digital Audio and when you work with digital audio your working in a DAW. Their area few types of DAW's. FL (Fruit Loops), is primarily a Looping program, Other DAW's focused on creating Synths or whatever. BiaB does is a song arrangement DAW @Rustyspoon# I agree that to needs to follow in the other windows, that's where some constancy is needed, and yes "a video is worth a thousand words" Thanks, Robert
Last edited by robertw; 01/20/25 12:28 PM.
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"By saying that BiaB is a DAW, It's because BiaB is working with digital Audio and when you work with digital audio your working in a DAW." Yep. I agree.
Jim Fogle - 2025 BiaB (Build 1128) RB (Build 5) - Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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General MIDI has seven drum kits; standard, room, power, electric, rap, jazz and brush. Please set up the Piano Roll window so the keyboard displays the drum kit sound name associated with each key of the Pitch Selector keyboard. Presently the Pitch Selector keyboard displays note names such as C3, C4 or C5. As indicated in PG Music's +++ General Music Instruments and Drum Map Lists tutorial +++ PG Music also sometimes uses note numbers such as 60, 61 or 62. However the user still must use a cross reference list or memorize what note numbers are associated with each drum sound. ![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=29984&filename=Clipboard07.jpg)
Jim Fogle - 2025 BiaB (Build 1128) RB (Build 5) - Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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Argument is resolved! great!
Lets focus on the meat please.
Anybody liked my wish idea for the bar settings? If not, how would you do it differently?
Another perfect candidate for panel in my view is Chord settings. Specifically Rests, Shots, Holds and Pushes.
Currently there are two methods:
1) Typing in Chord cell in chord view, that could look something like: D7..d,p,u1,u3,u4,u7,u9,u12,u16,u19,u23 - which is just absurd as with one mistake you could be retyping ~40 characters
2)Chord options - I find that mixed legacy and a separate drop down for utility tracks are not intuitive or consistent.
Any ideas?
Last edited by Rustyspoon#; 01/20/25 02:24 PM.
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I like the timeline better, but it needs to show more information of what is in a bar, and should be on the bottom? as a status bar, that could also serve as a Navigator? Yes "Another perfect candidate for panel in my view is Chord settings. Specifically Rests, Shots, Holds and Pushes. " Look at my post just after yours https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=839615#Post839615The panel should show everything that happening in the Bar you are on, and allow you to edit it via both the panel and the work ares depending on what you need to do. That each track will require it's own settings, so the Panel will have a scroll down, if there is a lot of settings needed (Guitar, Drums, Piano, Horns, etc....) Robert
Last edited by robertw; 01/20/25 03:03 PM.
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I've read through this thread a second time, and all I can say is that it is going to be difficult to proceed in this unfocused manner. There are too many topics to be covered in one thread. We've spent decades on some of these individual suggestions.
About some of the things mentioned here so far, though, I do like the idea of giving some love to the Navigator, eliminating the Radio buttons in favor of an indicator, and considering a vertical mixer which I think most people expect to see.
One area not mentioned yet is the basic format of the Chordsheet. There have been good suggestions made in recent years about organizing a cell differently, so each measure has four clearly defined subdividable beats (and more or fewer beats per measure if other time signatures are implemented), so that microchords are made more straightforward and the whole idea of commas is eliminated. This could give a new way to address the suggestions just made above by Rustyspoon and RobertW.
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PG just delete post if they don't like what you say. I have given so much even though I have been in palliative care and won't be around too much longer. When I said it has nearly killed me trying to bring about change, I wasn't far off. So PG can delete all that I have given and delete me, then they can go back to the old ways keeping their heads in the sand and staying in the past.
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Musocity, I do not understand how anything you just wrote relates to my post that you replied to.
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Matt,
It's a public discussion, so its natural to expect non-focused suggestions. This user input/opinion thread should have at least several sub topics to be more specific. One on each view, tools, library and "other".
I agree on the chord "cells". But it's a much bigger discussion. If I remember correctly, there are couple of existing logical issues. For example if let say you want a 1 beat bar in 4/4 setting. Even you are editing a specific bar, all following bars after the edited become single beat bars. There were couple of other issues that I can't remember now.
As far as Micro Chords... it was a strange concept, as they play over existing main chords like a layer. Which could produce interesting musical bits. What I am saying, they don't actually play 1/16ths parts as one would imagine.
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Robert(w),
In your mock drawing, it's a bit unclear how bar setting logic would fit. You have wording "depending on what is selected"...
I think I understand where you going with this, but contradicts the existing logic. For example: Mute all except.. All back to normal except.. Everything in compact setting.
With various views, you will have a natural discrepancy where tracks are located and their zoom level. So selecting actual tracks will be less unintuitive and slower than existing process. I sincerely doubt it will be possible to reinvent this mouse trap. Logic is solid. My biggest "functional" issue with Bar Settings in current state that it has this dropdown for non legacy tracks instead of having a whole list, so it would require quite a few extra clicks. Monkey labor. In my mock, I left all the logic intact with exception that it has a full list of tracks.
About Chord options (Rests, holds, etc.) full height panel will accommodate 24 tracks (max in BIAB). I believe if real estate allows for full list, reserve scrolling for rainy day. Limit of 24 tracks actually be beneficial on this.
Last edited by Rustyspoon#; 01/20/25 06:51 PM.
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Rustyspoon#, In your mock drawing, it's a bit unclear how bar setting logic would fit. You have wording "depending on what is selected"...The current F5 shows instument changes at this barIf you select a bar (In the chords view) #15 that has "Instrument Changes at this bar": Muted Back to normal change by Fade in (By Bar) Louder (By Bar) Along with the corresponding Patch Changes We could also have?Fade out Louder should be by db also, let's add Rest, holds, push and perhaps other things Scrolling is when someone has many tracks, to fit the window. you will have a natural discrepancy where tracks are located and their zoom level. Tracks are automatically zoomed to the bar your on. and if it's an audio track, then the work area shows the audio track, if MIDI then the MIDI editor or Music staff (User sets what he wants as default)In my mock, I left all the logic intact with exception that it has a full list of tracks. From what I could see, it looks close to what I'm thinking.Robert
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PG just delete post if they don't like what you say. I have given so much even though I have been in palliative care and won't be around too much longer. When I said it has nearly killed me trying to bring about change, I wasn't far off. So PG can delete all that I have given and delete me, then they can go back to the old ways keeping their heads in the sand and staying in the past. @musocity (RT), Sorry to hear that you are not doing well, the internet may delete you, but you will always be on my mind, I will not forget the things you have taught me! (You didn't know you taught me, but you did) Take it easy and do not let this stress you out. With Love, Robert
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