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Specific suggestions - Chord Sheet #839911 01/22/25 12:31 AM Band-in-a-Box Wishlist
Joined: May 2002 Posts: 7,367 Victoria, BC Andrew - PG Music OP PG Music Staff
OP Andrew - PG Music PG Music Staff Joined: May 2002 Posts: 7,367 Victoria, BC	This thread is for suggestions regarding the Chord Sheet view. This is for specific suggestions only, not general comments. There are a few ideas extracted from the main user interface enhancements thread robertw: I think the Chords Timeline work great, but I would like to see perhaps, text to show 1 verse, 2,verse, etc... as well as where you have some kind of action, like Fills, Push/Hold, etc... Maybe R1, R2, R3 for the Repeat signs, and a "F", "P", "H" and for more than 1 action in a bar "$" (used a dollar sign, could be whatever works best). <chords_timeline> Matt Finley: One area not mentioned yet is the basic format of the Chordsheet. There have been good suggestions made in recent years about organizing a cell differently, so each measure has four clearly defined subdividable beats (and more or fewer beats per measure if other time signatures are implemented), so that microchords are made more straightforward and the whole idea of commas is eliminated. Andrew PG Music Inc.

Re: Specific suggestions - Chord Sheet Andrew - PG Music #839960 01/22/25 08:05 AM Band-in-a-Box Wishlist
Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 4,095 Oregon jpettit Veteran
jpettit Veteran Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 4,095 Oregon	Originally Posted by Andrew - PG Music This thread is for suggestions regarding the Chord Sheet view. This is for specific suggestions only, not general comments. There are a few ideas extracted from the main user interface enhancements thread 1) robertw: I think the Chords Timeline work great, but I would like to see perhaps, text to show 1 verse, 2,verse, etc... 2) as well as where you have some kind of action, like Fills, Push/Hold, etc... 3) Maybe R1, R2, R3 for the Repeat signs, 4) and a "F", "P", "H" and for more than 1 action in a bar "$" (used a dollar sign, could be whatever works best). <chords_timeline> Matt Finley: One area not mentioned yet is the basic format of the Chordsheet. There have been good suggestions made in recent years about organizing a cell differently, 5) so each measure has four clearly defined subdividable beats 6) (and more or fewer beats per measure if other time signatures are implemented), 7) so that microchords are made more straightforward and the whole idea of commas is eliminated. 1) +1 on what is called an arranger track in other DAWS. Make it easier to show flow. So, is this more than labels? 2) +1 Charlie also suggested this with ability to show changes in RTs. This adds fodder to the idea of an arranger track. 3) -1 I am OK with standard notation repeat signs. There is a whole other thread on repeat because in general they tend not to work well. 4) Don't understand. I fear an alphabet soup with decoder ring to cramp hidden meaning in. Like the idea of an arranger track to call things out clearer. 5) +1 yes, I would like to see zoom expand the bar out to see all beats in a bar. 6) Yes, see above 7) yes, see above. Micro chords need to become part of the chord view. Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).

Re: Specific suggestions - Chord Sheet Andrew - PG Music #840004 01/22/25 11:09 AM Band-in-a-Box Wishlist
Joined: Mar 2018 Posts: 6,686 Rustyspoon# Veteran
Rustyspoon# Veteran Joined: Mar 2018 Posts: 6,686	If you have 4/4 or any other time signature and you need a bar with different number of beats... Currently, when you edit a specific bar through Bar Settings and set amount of beats for that bar, it changes all of the bars that follow the one being changed in Chord View. It should only change that specific bar, leaving all the following bars time signature(s) intact.

Re: Specific suggestions - Chord Sheet Andrew - PG Music #840016 01/22/25 12:55 PM Band-in-a-Box Wishlist
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 1,540 Spain C Cerio Expert
Cerio Expert C Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 1,540 Spain	Why design all views independently, forcing the user to choose between the ‘Chords’ view OR the ‘Tracks’ view? Wouldn't be much better if we had a main screen where the user could simultaneously see all the most important views (chords, tracks, lyrics, sections, the whole song's structure...) and edit any of them from a single place? Take a look, for example, at Song Master Pro, is a beautiful example of how different views can be integrated in a single screen in a really intuitive way: First, you always have a view of the whole song structure, you can navigate to the different parts directly from there, and you can also zoom in/out directly from there: Then, you have different "Tracks" (Views) that you can show / hide as you wish. No need to see the "Sections" or the "Lyrics" track? No problem, just hide them: Want to use the mixer or any other tool? Just click on the tiny icons at the top right to show / hide the tools / browser panels: Last edited by Cerio; 01/23/25 04:53 AM. Latest BIAB version, latest build.

Re: Specific suggestions - Chord Sheet Andrew - PG Music #840017 01/22/25 12:56 PM Band-in-a-Box Wishlist
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 1,540 Spain C Cerio Expert
Cerio Expert C Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 1,540 Spain	Want to add / edit / delete / copy / paste a chord? You can do it from the main screen (in general, you can edit any element from the main screen just by clicking on it) You can also move chords directly from the main screen, just by draggin them. Note that the chords will move accordingly to the snap setting, so it's possible to insert up to 16 chords per bar from here (no need to use commas, carets, or that counterintuitive "Micro chords" feature) Want to loop a section? Use the standard and super intuitive method you're used to: Want to see just the whole chord sheet? No problem, juts click on the apropriate icon. And yes, you still can edit most elements (chords, lyrics, notes...) also from this view just by clicking on them: It's all about flexibility, modularity and coherency between the different views. Last edited by Cerio; 01/23/25 04:55 AM. Latest BIAB version, latest build.

Re: Specific suggestions - Chord Sheet Andrew - PG Music #840020 01/22/25 01:10 PM Band-in-a-Box Wishlist
Joined: Sep 2013 Posts: 419 S shlind Journeyman
shlind Journeyman S Joined: Sep 2013 Posts: 419	Yes/ +1

Re: Specific suggestions - Chord Sheet Andrew - PG Music #840023 01/22/25 01:24 PM Band-in-a-Box Wishlist
Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 4,095 Oregon jpettit Veteran
jpettit Veteran Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 4,095 Oregon	I like Cerio's points. This conversation was breached slightly in many of the previous threads in the last week. Which puts emphasis on a serious improvement of the Track view. Add a decent chord area with bigger editable chords. Add an Arrangement Track the show the parts of the song. I guess another point I'd like to leave PGM with is, all of these discussions have been implemented in other music software tools. Spend more time analyzing what you like about those tools to see if it's easy to do in BIAB. Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).

Re: Specific suggestions - Chord Sheet Andrew - PG Music #840029 01/22/25 01:32 PM Band-in-a-Box Wishlist
Joined: Mar 2018 Posts: 6,686 Rustyspoon# Veteran
Rustyspoon# Veteran Joined: Mar 2018 Posts: 6,686	I like the concept, and looks very pretty... While I agree that inline chord entry is beneficial in some places, to insert something "fast". +1 to have it as a timeline option... However I love chord sheet layout. I find it very useful and easy to work with. Sure, it needs several improvements, but it is indispensable. Also, some people use that for practice, following chords - which would be not intuitive at all with inline strip.

Re: Specific suggestions - Chord Sheet Rustyspoon# #840037 01/22/25 02:05 PM Band-in-a-Box Wishlist
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 1,540 Spain C Cerio Expert
Cerio Expert C Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 1,540 Spain	Originally Posted by Rustyspoon# However I love chord sheet layout. I find it very useful and easy to work with. Sure, it needs several improvements, but it is indispensable. Also, some people use that for practice, following chords - which would be not intuitive at all with inline strip. The integrated view and the chord view do not have to be incompatible (see last image of my post) Latest BIAB version, latest build.

Re: Specific suggestions - Chord Sheet Andrew - PG Music #840042 01/22/25 02:51 PM Band-in-a-Box Wishlist
Joined: Mar 2018 Posts: 6,686 Rustyspoon# Veteran
Rustyspoon# Veteran Joined: Mar 2018 Posts: 6,686	I get it, but I like the cell view better (than over notation) Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of inline chord entry/edit, but in other views. Cerio, great visual presentation BTW. If PGM adopts some of these ideas, it could finally be a breakthrough for many of us and way forward for future users.

Re: Specific suggestions - Chord Sheet Andrew - PG Music #840055 01/22/25 04:14 PM Band-in-a-Box Wishlist
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 26,874 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY Matt Finley Veteran
Matt Finley Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 26,874 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY	I am reminded of the statement by an older Supreme Court, rephrased to say “ I can’t define good design but I know it when I see it”. At some point we might find it useful to cite other software and what specifically we like about its design. BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.

Re: Specific suggestions - Chord Sheet Andrew - PG Music #840076 01/22/25 07:02 PM Band-in-a-Box Wishlist
Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 4,095 Oregon jpettit Veteran
jpettit Veteran Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 4,095 Oregon	Micro chords Reimagined Beats match Time Signature/Feel Resolution defaults to beats Beat marks only show on current selected bar Context Menu: - 1/8 - 1/16 -Triplet - Insert Rest - Insert Motif - Add Drum Fill - Shot - Hold - Exclusion Popup (drop down list) Last edited by jpettit; 01/22/25 07:11 PM. Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).

Re: Specific suggestions - Chord Sheet Andrew - PG Music #840164 01/23/25 09:32 AM Band-in-a-Box Wishlist
Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 4,095 Oregon jpettit Veteran
jpettit Veteran Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 4,095 Oregon	Well, I must have blown people's minds being so obvious with my "Micro" chord's suggestion, so I will comment on my own post. What does this have to do with the chord view? Everything. 1) It addresses one of the first abnormalities of the chord view the fact that a bar is broken into 1/2 measures. With this design the bar would be broken into the beats, so 4 segment for 4/4 and 3 segment for 3/4. This makes entering chords more intuitively obvious without having to learn some additional techniques. 2) It also introduces the idea of only showing the segmentation on the current bar keeping the look clean and familiar. 3) Micro chords by the pure name sounds like an afterthought (it was) and many people did not like or understand the design. This this incorporates in a natural workflow the most common musical chord situations, of the chance of a chord change on one of the beats in the measure and the ability to do a 1/8 note chord transition. A more natural workflow where you don't have to explain to people about commas and micro chords. Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).

Re: Specific suggestions - Chord Sheet Andrew - PG Music #840168 01/23/25 09:44 AM Band-in-a-Box Wishlist
Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 4,095 Oregon jpettit Veteran
jpettit Veteran Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 4,095 Oregon	BTW, I do believe the chord track is a nice chord sheet (printable for live musicians to follow) and show where Peters head was at in the initial days of BB, but with Chord Tracks being common in DAWs and stuck with a linear flow of DAWs a fully functional Chord track as shown in Cerio examples is the way to go for serious work on entering chords. It aligns with ideas of better (more room) showing the arrangement sections, and small changes you can make to the progression as it flows. We are caught between two subjects here Track View and the Chord View, so I will put my examples in the track view suggestion area. Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).

Re: Specific suggestions - Chord Sheet Andrew - PG Music #840174 01/23/25 10:33 AM Band-in-a-Box Wishlist
Joined: Mar 2018 Posts: 6,686 Rustyspoon# Veteran
Rustyspoon# Veteran Joined: Mar 2018 Posts: 6,686	Jeff, 1) Micro chords are not really 1/16th chords, are they? They seem not, not in a traditional sense. Using MC you can create interesting musical nuances, but that will be it. If I remember correctly, you yourself had made a nice diagram showing that they are "layer" chords, over the main chord(s). If this is the case, then there is no place for them in actual Chord Sheet as they are a "side" tool and a panel would be a perfect candidate for that. Perhaps an indication that MC is present a the bar? A colored dot or such. Also, I think typing in microchords in main cells with commas is a bit overkill, as instead of arranging you do sort of coding. 2) "Chord track as shown in Cerio examples is the way to go for serious work on entering chords." For Track View, ACW - Yes. Would be great! And yes, suggestion belongs in Track View thread. Chord Sheet is a different view and serves a different purpose. 3) I agree that 4/4 should have 4 cells, 3/4 -3, etc. Absolutely.

Re: Specific suggestions - Chord Sheet Rustyspoon# #840177 01/23/25 10:50 AM Band-in-a-Box Wishlist
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 22,784 Hamlin NY MarioD Veteran
MarioD Veteran Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 22,784 Hamlin NY	Originally Posted by Rustyspoon# Jeff, ...................................................... 3) I agree that 4/4 should have 4 cells, 3/4 -3, etc. Absolutely. FWIW - why not have a grid like a lot of DAWs have. Set the grid to whole notes for one chord per cell. Set it for 8th notes for up to 8 chords per cell, etc. Have it so if you change from say a quarter note to a 16th note grid cell the quarter note chords and all other note chords still line up perfectly. This could work for all time signatures. YMMV When you are at the checkout line and they ask if you found everything say "Why, are you hiding stuff?" 64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware

Re: Specific suggestions - Chord Sheet Rustyspoon# #840178 01/23/25 10:51 AM Band-in-a-Box Wishlist
Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 4,095 Oregon jpettit Veteran
jpettit Veteran Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 4,095 Oregon	Originally Posted by Rustyspoon# Jeff, 1) Micro chords are not really 1/16th chords, are they? They seem not, not in a traditional sense. 2)Using MC you can create interesting musical nuances, but that will be it. If I remember correctly, you yourself had made a nice diagram showing that they are "layer" chords, over the main chord(s). If this is the case, then there is no place for them in actual Chord Sheet as they are a "side" tool and a panel would be a perfect candidate for that. 3) Perhaps an indication that MC is present a the bar? A colored dot or such. Also, 4) I think typing in microchords in main cells with commas is a bit overkill, as instead of arranging you do sort of coding. 1) Yes, currently up to 1/16. in practice it rare for a chord to be less than 1/8. (I actually think they should reduce its complexity to 1/8) 2) Hmm, you may have missed the power of Micro Chords. I used them immediately to add syncopated transitions chords in a song I was working on when they were introduces. They are real chords and rests and motifs that will render in the track even in the plugin. 3) The micro chords already show up in the chord sheet after you use the convoluted MC Window. (all the same symbols I showed) 4) Disagree, I would have loved to just enter my 1/8 syncopated chord directly into the chore track. Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).

Re: Specific suggestions - Chord Sheet MarioD #840180 01/23/25 10:53 AM Band-in-a-Box Wishlist
Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 4,095 Oregon jpettit Veteran
jpettit Veteran Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 4,095 Oregon	Originally Posted by MarioD Originally Posted by Rustyspoon# Jeff, ...................................................... 3) I agree that 4/4 should have 4 cells, 3/4 -3, etc. Absolutely. FWIW - why not have a grid like a lot of DAWs have. Set the grid to whole notes for one chord per cell. Set it for 8th notes for up to 8 chords per cell, etc. Have it so if you change from say a quarter note to a 16th note grid cell the quarter note chords and all other note chords still line up perfectly. This could work for all time signatures. YMMV Yes, I was trying to make it less intrusive and less of a change for people used to using the cord track. That is why I suggested the grid only shows up when entering in chords for a particular bar. I also think 1/8th is enough granularity. Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).

Re: Specific suggestions - Chord Sheet jpettit #840211 01/23/25 02:45 PM Band-in-a-Box Wishlist
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 22,784 Hamlin NY MarioD Veteran
MarioD Veteran Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 22,784 Hamlin NY	Originally Posted by jpettit ...................................... Yes, I was trying to make it less intrusive and less of a change for people used to using the cord track. That is why I suggested the grid only shows up when entering in chords for a particular bar. I also think 1/8th is enough granularity. FWIW - I think we have to stop worrying about how people currently use BiaB. Some of the outstanding suggestions along with accompanying mock-ups are radical changes from the current GUI. If we keep worrying about the current GUI/workflow then nothing will change. We all are capable of change. IMHO if this is going to happen lets do it right the first time. That is just my opinion and other may not agree with me. When you are at the checkout line and they ask if you found everything say "Why, are you hiding stuff?" 64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware

Re: Specific suggestions - Chord Sheet MarioD #840214 01/23/25 03:01 PM Band-in-a-Box Wishlist
Joined: Sep 2013 Posts: 419 S shlind Journeyman
shlind Journeyman S Joined: Sep 2013 Posts: 419	Originally Posted by MarioD Originally Posted by jpettit ...................................... Yes, I was trying to make it less intrusive and less of a change for people used to using the cord track. That is why I suggested the grid only shows up when entering in chords for a particular bar. I also think 1/8th is enough granularity. FWIW - I think we have to stop worrying about how people currently use BiaB. Some of the outstanding suggestions along with accompanying mock-ups are radical changes from the current GUI. If we keep worrying about the current GUI/workflow then nothing will change. We all are capable of change. IMHO if this is going to happen lets do it right the first time. That is just my opinion and other may not agree with me. Yes, I fully agree/+1.

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