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Background: RustySpoon# and I started veering off topic in the Specific suggestions - Toolbars, layout, menus, preferences and “other” thread started by Simon +++ here +++. I suggested starting a new thread so the original thread can get back on topic. I also hope other users may want to contribute to a discussion about how much should the Band-in-a-Box graphic interface resemble a DAW. One thought is Band-in-a-Box, or BiaB for short, is predominately a song structure and arrangement tool that creates backing tracks. There are numerous structure and arrangement commands that have no counterpart in the typical DAW. Navigate to Edit > Song Form and ask yourself, "Can a DAW do these things?" For example BiaB has a chord sheet with bars that can handle multiple choruses, repeats/codas/1st & 2nd endings. RealTracks, MIDI SuperTracks, UserTracks, the Melodists, the Soloists are track content creation tools unique to Band-in-a-Box. BiaB can even create midi from patterns. BiaB creates track content, DAWs can in some instances but it's not a strong point. The really big thought though is this, there are four major steps to a song project, pre-production (planning and practicing), production (track content creation), post-production (editing and mixing) and mastering (distribution preparation). The way many users use BiaB is in pre-production and production. They then move the BiaB tracks to a DAW for post-production and mastering. Why not stay in BiaB? Because editing and mixing is more comfortable in a DAW than in BiaB. BiaB has unique editing and mixing features but they are grouped in different places within the program. For that reason, I'd like to see the editing and mixing functions in BiaB look and work more like a DAW.
Jim Fogle - 2025 BiaB (Build 1128) RB (Build 5) - Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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yes + to infinity for normal daw featuresn in bb.
as ive said many times since bb tracks view introduction...make bb tv creation central re songs and enable users to use it as much as can be done and minimising time lost flitting around to access other views.
eg i can currently do most of my work in rb track view.
also to go with bb tv i think as there are many different new bb gui opinions and needs out there a new feature needs to be implemented called BB TV CONFIGURATOR..the aim being to allow a user to configure the bb tv as they wish within reason.
sorta like in ones home where one can set up ones tv to show say ones fav tv channels they only use.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 01/31/25 06:42 AM.
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Keeping the tabs and all the functionality available on the current Audio Mixer and packaging the functionality in a new mixing console view makes sense and would make the mixer more user friendly to those that are accustomed to working with DAWs. If repackaging the Audio Mixer interface is taking the Audio Mixer too far, I'm fine with the existing mixer. Having said that though, my expectation is PG Music will implement the four suggestions I made in +++ this +++ post. The Tracks View excites many users and has the potential to become the most DAW like window in Band-in-a-Box. The obstacle I see hindering the Tracks View is it displays a song linearly. Much thought will have to be given as to how the Tracks View can display a song that is not linear.
Jim Fogle - 2025 BiaB (Build 1128) RB (Build 5) - Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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My answer is not meant to suggest it will work for anyone else.
I use BIAB as a composition and arranging tool, so I'm always tinkering. I don't even need to get to your step 2, 3, or 4 - production or post production, and I rarely even do these steps to make a composer demo I share with other musicians. [ But if I did, I would do it in my DAW.]
I would like to be comfortable staying in BIAB as long as possible as I hone ideas. The features I want are to facilitate and improve this. For example, I would love to have support for a Mackie Control Surface so I could automate the mixer faders. This is very much a DAW function, but BIAB has had support for the old Frontier Design Tranzport for decades, so they did understand at one time what I'm talking about.
I don't mean to derail another thread, so let me know if it is of value for me to write more on the subject.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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"Much thought will have to be given as to how the Tracks View can display a song that is not linear."
Jim I think I know what you are trying to say... You mean things like repeated choruses, etc? If I am right, I don't use that technique myself, but why don't you open Track View with one of your projects and see what is happening. Most likely it just generates a copy of chorus? In any case, I believe it will give you visuals of what is happening.
Idea that had been voiced already is to have proper timeline with "in typing" chords. So in linear world, the most common sense approach (addressing non-linear) would be select section of time line and define it as Chorus, Verse or whatever. Color coded. Then, be able to re-order or/and repeat sections. I believe Cakewalk and likely others are using similar method.
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Hi RustySpoon#, Multiple choruses itself is likely is not that much of a limiting factor on the Track View. The Track View should automatically unfold a song project to linearly display song tracks and I think that is how tracks presently display. I think it is more likely the current 255 bar restriction may be thought of as a hard barrier. But I ask you, if you have a 100 bar song and repeat ten of the bars 100 times how many bars is in the song? Point is a there is at least one "workaround" available to bypass the restriction. How should the Track View display repeats (all tracks loops) versus audio loops (single track loop)? The Edit > Song Form sub menu is a great example of commands that do not necessarily align with a linear track display. Some DAWs have an optional arranger track to handle the song form dialog. In the DAW world each section can be labeled Intro, verse 1, chorus, outro whereas in BiaB the song form dialog automatically uses A, B, C etc. Either way could possibly be folded into the Track View. But I'm not sure how the Track View should handle first and second endings, codas, tags and so on. ![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=30112&filename=Covid 05.jpg) Thanks to both JustAnOldMuso (JAOM), Matt Finley and RustySpoon# for joining the discussion. I hope more will find this interesting and contribute their thoughts.
Jim Fogle - 2025 BiaB (Build 1128) RB (Build 5) - Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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"if you have a 100 bar song and repeat ten of the bars 100 times" Sorry Jim, I don't have time making, or even listening to such songs. "The Edit > Song Form sub menu is a great example of commands that do not necessarily align with a linear track display." Well, what is happening in T.View when you use Song Form? Why would it not align? It's likely just reuses parts like loops? Something must be happening there  ""workaround" available to bypass the restriction." Get rid of restriction - problem solved. For example, by default it could have 350 bars and if a user would need more, it would have a toaster warning - that generation might take long time - but will not restrict adding more bars.
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"Sorry Jim, I don't have time making, or even listening to such songs." I know. You've made some outstanding sounding song projects. But I thought "if you have a 100 bar song and repeat ten of the bars 100 times" provided an extreme example of what a user might try to do. I can see someone attempting to create such a song project to use during instrument practice. "Well, what is happening in T.View when you use Song Form? Why would it not align? It's likely just reuses parts like loops? Something must be happening there" Agree but I just don't know. I haven't used Track View much so I've not checked out all its capabilities. That's one reason I hope that users that do use Track View on a regular basis are contributing to this conversation. "Get rid of restriction - problem solved.". I'm all for that idea. But the focus in this thread is on the BiaB graphic interface and if, how, or should the interface resemble a typical DAW interface.
Jim Fogle - 2025 BiaB (Build 1128) RB (Build 5) - Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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I think it is more likely the current 255 bar restriction may be thought of as a hard barrier. But I ask you, if you have a 100 bar song and repeat ten of the bars 100 times how many bars is in the song? In a post few weeks back, Simon said that the limit when playing chorusses was 2000 bars: ++ here ++I know not what BiaB does if one tries to unfold such a song. Presumably it must either refuse or it must fail in some form.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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Simon was talking about RB. Yes. An interesting discussion followed about why the numbers are what they are. What did NOT get discussed there was that the introduction of the double-time timebase for some RealTracks cuts down on even the 255.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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RustySpoon# said " it doesn't mean that DAW features already in place should not be completed". I agree 100%. The DAW changes already in place seem to be well liked. You've already mentioned PG Music is onboard to making more changes to the DAW like features. My assumption is, and has been, that the changes will be made so the DAW like features will feel more complete to the end user...... Make Biab into RealBand then get rid of RealBand ?
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"Make Biab into RealBand then get rid of RealBand ?"
Band-in-a-Box may gain a more DAW like interface in some windows. I can see the audio mixer becoming a console view and the functionality of the Tracks View expanded. Because we're discussing graphic interface changes and not functionality changes I wouldn't expect to see much difference in the Piano Roll, Notation or Chord Sheet windows other than look pretty stuff.
Because RealBand has some functions that differ from Band-in-a-Box my expectation is RealBand will stick around. You may have noticed though that some effort has been made to make 2025 RealBand more pretty.
Jim Fogle - 2025 BiaB (Build 1128) RB (Build 5) - Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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I agree with the concept in as much as users would have a choice to stay in BIAB longer if they wished, however, they would also have freedom to move to their DAW at any stage of the production.
So extended DAW functionality inside BIAB would be a very versatile feature, and never compromise a user's specific workflow.
BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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Jim, the title to the OP "DAW Features In BiaB - Yes/No Why/Why Not" is not the question to me and perhaps others if you think about it from a user experience standpoint. This post states this is really about UX, found in many creative software platforms. It is not just about DAWs. It is about user friendliness. So, that answer is obviously Yes. Having said that, and after reading through this thread I am confused on your dilemma of Linear Tracks vs Charts or Scores with repeats/jumps in them. (invented to save paper BTW) PGM has already handle that in the Linear track view. They just unfold it all as you can see the bar chorus /repeats in parentheses. Can they do a better job at it? Yes, IMHO it desires a dedicated "Arranger Track" to cleanly show the parts of the song form. Just as they need a dedicated editable Chord Track in the Track View. Is there a wall at 255/128 in double time? Yes and no. Think of it as a spreadsheet (in software terms an array). They can play through that 255 cells many times and change the algorithm as they go. They have already solved that by unfolding in the track view. Is 255 bars still a problem, yes when you consider their double time solution divides it in half to 128 bars, and the solution above only works with entire (their term Choruses), so long songs with different movements are not possible without splitting the song up into parts killing the workflow but I don't this we want to discuss that here.
Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).
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"Because we're discussing graphic interface changes and not functionality changes I wouldn't expect to see much difference in the Piano Roll, Notation or Chord Sheet windows other than look pretty stuff." This is a wrong perception. Main idea behind users pushing for UI redo is mainly workflow / customization addressing known issues on the way. You have to view this holistically. Not one or the other. --------------------From an earlier question-------------- Jim, see attached image. This is how T.View looks with multiple choruses. I was actually able to generate 32 bars X 40 Got one giant snake of 1280 bars in T.View. And you can(!) partial regenerate segments of any tracks in any one of these 40 repeats. So not really sure what was the question about T.View in non-linear structure. Works like a charm. ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/HnxZM5hh/chor.jpg)
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"DAW Features In BiaB - Yes/No Why/Why Not"
NO
I know that I am in the minority here but:
1-put the entire BiaB package into RB
2-put the entire BiaB package sans the DAW features into the VST
As for #1 do the GUI upgrades listed in RB, i.e not in BiaB. You will get more tracks, measures, and other DAW advantages that are already in RB. In other words rework RB and not BiaB.
As for #2 a complete BiaB VST could be available for both PC and MAC (maybe even Linux - don't know) simultaneously. Also those of us that already use DAWs other than RB would not have to pay for functions that we would never use in a DAW version of BiaB.
Last edited by MarioD; 02/01/25 06:34 AM.
When you are at the checkout line and they ask if you found everything say "Why, are you hiding stuff?"
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Mario.
actually that makes a lot of sense.
kudos. i ssume the bb plugin vst could also be used standalone like bb is currently whereby i can just drag genned bbtracks into a daw that supports d and d which ive done lots of.
eg bb to rb or bb to reaps.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 02/01/25 07:10 AM.
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"Make Biab into RealBand then get rid of RealBand ?"
Band-in-a-Box may gain a more DAW like interface in some windows. I can see the audio mixer becoming a console view and the functionality of the Tracks View expanded. Because we're discussing graphic interface changes and not functionality changes I wouldn't expect to see much difference in the Piano Roll, Notation or Chord Sheet windows other than look pretty stuff.
Because RealBand has some functions that differ from Band-in-a-Box my expectation is RealBand will stick around. You may have noticed though that some effort has been made to make 2025 RealBand more pretty. Not just more pretty but it is easier to use when a lot of stuff is hidden. Also it is more powerful in the comping and generation is much improved.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2025, Realband, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 9 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app.
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Great discussion! I'm glad to see Gordon Scott, musocity, AudioTrack, jpettit, MarioD and Rob Helms have joined the discussion. RustySpoon#, jpettit and MarioD have presented differing views about how deep an upgrade we are discussing. Summarizing the thoughts as I understand them, jpettit and Rob Helms are concentrating only on changes to the graphic interface, RustySpoon# believes underlying issues can/should be fixed while changing the graphic interface while MarioD and JustAnOldMuso supports ditching Band-in-a-Box all together while splitting the features between the Plug-In and RealBand. Wow! Can't get much more divergent than that. These divergent thoughts demonstrate why I thought it was a good idea to start a discussion thread. We won't know which thought is nearest to being correct until PG Music drops an update or in the next annual release. Perhaps the summertime Mac release will give us a hint. Looking back at Andrew's directive in the +++ original thread +++ he was pretty specific about what he wanted, "This thread is for suggestions regarding the Toolbars, layout, menus, preferences and other. This is for specific suggestions only, not general comments." Until we agree on what feedback Andrew is requesting the conversation will continue to diverge in different directions. To me Andrew's request is for graphic interface changes with minimal to no changes in operation. Also past changes indicate changes will be gradual (think non-modal to modal windows) and tempered (think Control+T to switch between the Minimal Screen Mode and Normal Screen Mode). What do you guys think? Again I hope additional users will contribute to the conversation and that those that have contributed so far will continue to do so.
Jim Fogle - 2025 BiaB (Build 1128) RB (Build 5) - Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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What I really can't understand - the pushback against "DAW features" in BIAB...
What exactly are people talking about? What NEW features that are being proposed are not part of BIAB already that few people are so afraid of? Please be very specific. No soap operas please.
The way I see it, 90% of what is asked by users is enhancing workflow - like moving away from labyrinth of pop up menus to non modal panels, consistency, finishing existing features to accepted standards - and flexibility of UI. Where is the evil DAW hiding?
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Band-in-a-Box 2025 French Version is Here!
Bonjour à tous,
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 pour Windows est disponible en Français.
Le téléchargement se fait à partir du site PG Music
Pour ceux qui auraient déjà acheté la version 2025 de Band-in-a-Box (et qui donc ont une version anglaise), il est possible de "franciser" cette version avec les patchs suivants:
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Band-in-a-Box® for iOS® :Summary video.
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