I have no interest in RB. Because it's not even remotely close to any DAW that is currently in development. Cheap or free. Years apart. I get it, it's free, some people got used to it, have existing projects, don't need anything else out of DAW... How many people joined in the last 5 or even 10 years made it their "DAW of choice"? Just check RB threads. Exclude people who registered pre 2015 and those who spoke negatively about this software and didn't find resolution. -------------
What I am still confused about, the topic "DAW Features In BiaB..." what exactly we are talking about? To have civilized discussion please give specific DAW features, functions of which are not present in BIAB that are being offered, and what exactly you don't like about these newly proposed features. Details.
< To be able to work with RT underlaying MIDI by itself. So it not only responds to further chord changes, but does partial regens as well. That is quite a big chunk of MIDI content that can be used quite differently. Since the MIDI counterpart functions are already in the code and currently work in tandem with many RTs, we really (really!) need to ask PGM to have a way to toggle between the two the easy way. That is in my view falls under enhancing workflow of existing feature. Making process less complicated >
<< I have no interest in RB. >>
Perhaps this will change your view: Easy to see and toggle between the RealTrack and its underlying midi RealChart in RealBand. In RealBand, it's user selectable to include RealCharts or not to include. The RealChart is labeled to match the associated RealTrack. If the track or a selected region is regenerated, the underlying midi is updated also. The RealChart midi track can be used independently from the associated RealTrack.
No erasing RealTracks or copy/moving RT midi data. It's laid out in DAW form in RealBand. PG Music provided a way to toggle between RealTracks and Midi RealCharts years ago with RealBand.
Charlie... talking about RB in BIAB topic. I am not interested in this underdeveloped sub-daw only because it has sprinkles of features that are for some unknown reason are present, but not available to users in BIAB. Nothing will change my opinion about RB. I've tried it at least a dozen times. In my view, this is a legacy software that is being kept alive only in the spirit of good will for those who are still using it. I have not seen any enthusiasts on this forum embracing it in the past 5 years.
It seems that PGM is considering partial redo of BIAB. UI/Workflow/Menus My only hope that they will address known issues and broken workflow items such as these MIDI charts for example when/if they do this. There is absolutely no reason to artificially suppress existing features.
Charlie... talking about RB in BIAB topic. I am not interested in this underdeveloped sub-daw only because it has sprinkles of features that are for some unknown reason are present, but not available to users in BIAB. Nothing will change my opinion about RB. I've tried it at least a dozen times. In my view, this is a legacy software that is being kept alive only in the spirit of good will for those who are still using it. I have not seen any enthusiasts on this forum embracing it in the past 5 years.
It seems that PGM is considering partial redo of BIAB. UI/Workflow/Menus My only hope that they will address known issues and broken workflow items such as these MIDI charts for example when/if they do this. There is absolutely no reason to artificially suppress existing features.
Let's be clear. I didn't bring up RealBand. Someone else did and you responded to it. I mentioned it because it does exactly what you "really, really" need, exactly in the view you want to see. Thought it may help you. You also mentioned and posted a video about Cakewalk. Why are we talking about Cakewalk in a BIAB topic? Because the thread topic DAW features in BIAB seem to infer that DAWs will be mentioned and discussed, including RealBand.
It's a choice to have no interest in RealBand when it's available to you and has the sprinkles of features today and in the past that PG Music has provided for people that prefer DAW view and features.
I'm aware of several options in BIAB to obtain similar results to RealBand but they don't include Tracks View because it's not fully developed for such tasks yet. Nothing is broken, it's just not your workflow.
THAT ^ is the philosophy that kept BIAB from where it needs to be for many years. Workflow has to be universally accepted, adhering to existing accepted software standards as much as possible, not analogue hardware world.
Historically you were pushing back against many workflow improvements that were offered in wishlist section, silencing new voices of reason. But what really striking is that you don't really use the features you so desperately trying to steer away people from. If obscure workflow and endless workarounds to achieve something trivial bring certain satisfaction to you - that's you. There is no need trying to stop much needed progress. ------ What really should happen is strong backward compatibility of content. That way, those who like modal windows, endless pop ups, artificial limitations, ten step workaround that should take two, can happily use whatever version they prefer, yet get a discounted content upgrade. Core program update was only $50 recently. I want to see BIAB live on, not fade away.
This what steams my clams around here. Dare to have a different opinion and you are slammed for it. Every stinking time! It is always the same old tired rhetoric. " You are holding development" Whose development!!! a small select group that wants to drive the bus. How do I know this, I spent a long time on that bus. The level of tolerance for different ideas here is shocking and sad. The level of selfishness in the name of selflessness is amazing. I hear I want I want I want all day long. Andrew kindly and honestly posted threads about each and every PGM software title, giving all who want to offer ideas an open forum and some of you use it for your agenda. thinking you know best about how the entire user base feels. I am sorry but that is sad, and exactly what is wrong with society in general.
Have at it! slam and push away this is exactly why i left the suggestion group. You can write volumes about how wrong i am, i just don't care anymore i will post my thoughts privately from now on.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2025, Realband, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 9 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app.
Just as I was "slammed" numerous times... when more tracks, partial regeneration other features and workflow improvements were offered for the first time. With same "Nothing is broken, it's just not your workflow". But thankfully there were enough reasonable people to support these ideas.
Where have you been Rob to protect the views of those including mine who proposed these features that were met with fierce nonsense?
"Andrew kindly and honestly posted threads about each and every PGM software title, giving all who want to offer ideas an open forum..."
Trying to get a reasonable idea buried is not the same as to "offer idea". Two big differences.
jeesh...cant we all just have friendly collegial discussions ?
i agree rob there should be room for various opinions as pg user base is worlwide. also i consider charlie the bb guru. imho a degree of respect should be accorded to people with many years also helping new users on these forums innumerable times like charlie.
ive detailed my ideas on how wonderfull bb tracks view bbtv could be with certain daw features including direct to Andrew . (a great representive of pg imho.) but im also a realist haveing been on the developer side of the fence and the huge challenges involved in keeping various differing opinions and various user groups happy.
also lets remember every day songs are being done all over the world useing bb (and lol dare i say also rb....which ive used on 90 songs and so many demos ive lost count)....quirks and all. the user showcase is an examp!e that even with various quirks in pg apps tons of songs are done all the time.
frankly i have to say over the last few years ive become more upset with some threads on these forums and the tenet of such and the directions they sometimes take. lets remember numero uno per dr pg ie...HAVE FUN !!!! this is wby i do songs. im a fun happy go lucky guy.
happiness to all.
om
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
What I am still confused about, the topic "DAW Features In BiaB..." what exactly we are talking about? To have civilized discussion please give specific DAW features, functions of which are not present in BIAB that are being offered, and what exactly you don't like about these newly proposed features. Details.
You are correct RustySpoon#. Those are the questions that need to be discussed outside the threads Andrew posted soliciting suggestions. What DAW features do you WANT to see in Band-in-a-Box? What DAW features do you think NEED to be in Band-in-a-Box? There are multiple threads to list specific DAW features. This is a thread where you can advocate for those features, others can advocate against and discuss alternatives.
For example, in +++ THIS +++ I suggested 4 changes to the existing Audio Mixer. This prompted a discussion about the mixer. I'm suggesting discussing ideas in this thread with a goal of meeting Andrews direction.
Also, Simon said in +++ THIS +++ post, "UI, UX, and workflow are a big focus for us right now. We're going to work on both looks and interface functionality with a focus on workflow."
We can stretch to meet Simon's focus on workflow but, as we do we need to define what user workflow we're aiming at. There is singer songwriter, audio producer, educator, hardware DAW user, create backing tracks. I'm sure I've overlooked some so add to the what workflow are we talking about list.
Band-in-a-Box currently supports JAW scripts for the blind. JustAnOldMuso reminds us that the graphic interface needs to work for those that have vision issues.
"Band-in-a-Box currently supports JAW scripts for the blind. JustAnOldMuso reminds us that the graphic interface needs to work for those that have vision issues." I am frightened to mention [RXXXXX] but I did see themes for color/colour blind.
Reality is, 95% of ideas offered specifically concerning "DAW like features" are related to enhancing existing features/functions in BIAB.
"define what user workflow we're aiming at."
My take:
Reducing obscure complexity both in number and wording of menus - better sorting. Consolidate related menu items.
Easy access to common functions and tools, completing under-developed features > getting rid of obsolete ideas. Example: modal/non modal Partial Regeneration
Moving tools to Panels
Navigation, zoom and consistency of project views which includes minor adjustment to transport.
Customization of UI - detachable tools, custom colors & buttons, second/third screens compatibility, etc.
Completing Track View. Proper start marker, tracks on demand (not displaying all), proper ARM, zooming / expanding individual tracks, bringing editing tools from AE. A cherry topper would be per-track volume automation. If done right, AE can be removed as there would not be need in it. Less (unneeded) complexity - better workflow.
And yes, I would like a toggle between RT and MIDI notation on demand, since feature is present, but masked for unknown reason.
Whatever, truly not interested in this debate anymore. “Where was I” think back over the last three years I have supported many of your ideas openly and behind the scenes. Sadly if I don’t agree you, you argue your point to the end. Sorry but I am just too tired of the constant barrage of battle with anyone who sees something different. I give up have it your way.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2025, Realband, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 9 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app.
Rob, you inserted yourself in the ongoing 6+ year conversation between me and Charlie. Look, we are almost married. And no, I don't remember you being active in several very important conversations that took place about 5 years ago.
Thankfully enough key updates were done starting with minimalistic UI to make BIAB tolerable for me in 2025.
Sure, as you said, "whatever". I wanted to have a discussion of how to better propose something. To have fuller picture., but I don't really need this headache as well. I will just propose what I believe will bring positive change on my own and if it comes together, great, if not, I will not cry.
To get back to the discussion. Actually Musocity that's a good point since we're talking about graphic improvements. A few years ago a few graphic themes were developed and released. As with many things the themes have not been maintained and are now ineffective because they are out-of-date. I don't remember if this was a user or PG Music incentive but it was nice while it lasted.
Those posts can be a good place to begin a discussion about all the clutter presently in the top of screen menus. I'd like for everyone to look at each item and decide (1) should an item be global, (2) per song, (3) not a menu item (4) removed from preferences, (5) added to preferences or (6) deleted all together.
Here is a screen shot of the Help menu. There is a lot of stuff there and it's one of the smaller menu lists. What do you think?
For example, I selected the Write A Request File option and the second screen shot displayed. What does the binary file say? I have no idea. Why would I send something to support@pgmusic without knowing what it is? I'd vote for either deleting the command or hopefully PG Music can chime in and tell what it is for.
Last edited by Jim Fogle; 02/04/2512:04 PM. Reason: Clarify, fix typos and add screen shots
"Band-in-a-Box currently supports JAW scripts for the blind. JustAnOldMuso reminds us that the graphic interface needs to work for those that have vision issues." I am frightened to mention [RXXXXX] but I did see themes for color/colour blind.
This brings up a good point. I am partially color blind and can't tell many colors. In some threads I have to highlight some areas as I can't read them. Thus any color theme in BiaB must have the option to adjust or change any color.
I got banned from Weight Watchers for dropping a bag of M&Ms on the floor. It was the best game of Hungry Hippos I've ever seen!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Misha, i want to apologize for going off on you. I do appreciate your efforts and admire your grasp of the program. I do support many of your ideas, and suggestions. I am just tired of the way many respond to others when they offer suggestions that are different from theirs. There should be open dialog, that is why Andrew offered this thread. It seems that we all get very passionate regarding these programs that we all love to use. Again I apologize for giving you a bad time. You did not deserve it and i want to apologize here in the public forum out of respect you and all who work hard to help here. Your friend Rob.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2025, Realband, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 9 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app.
...This brings up a good point. I am partially color blind and can't tell many colors. In some threads I have to highlight some areas as I can't read them. Thus any color theme in BiaB must have the option to adjust or change any color.
Amen ! Mario you are the first one I thought about when I saw that color blind theme in that other DAW I can't talk about.
Misha, i want to apologize for going off on you....
When Rusty first came here I was happy and supported him as he had so many great ideas to bring about change, so I recommended him for the beta testing (along with Robb), though others tried to stop him but I fought for him. If Rusty looks back through his PMs he will see how much I have helped him but there is a bit of RustyMemory of all the ways I have helped. Things went wrong when I was talking about old and new users and he took it the wrong way that I was putting down "elderly" but it was nothing of the sort as I'm probably older in age than most here. Then because I posted about "that" DAW that was not liked and caused many issues when all I have been doing is showing how Biab can be improved with ideas I could script in "it", these have improved Biab and the BB Plugin no end and we might even get improvements in RealBand from it ? Look at Song Master Pro Cerio posted about It's a wonderful GUI that we can also learn from. I just wish a bit of understanding can come as to what I do and where I'm coming from, while going through massive life n death challenges in my own life I still give freely to help all users. All that I have been through has spiritually awakened me and those that need help are sent to me, I don't go looking for it. However stupid it may sound I think I was sent here for a reason as no matter how much I fight and try and get away I'm drawn back here, so if it's a God thing so be it. When you leave this world, emotions, opinions are all left in the body on the ground
THAT ^ is the philosophy that kept BIAB from where it needs to be for many years. Workflow has to be universally accepted, adhering to existing accepted software standards as much as possible
I have to agree, not only there are lots of broken / outdated features all over the program (many of them reported for years as anyone with some experience here knows very well), it's also that the lack of standard procedures and intuitive methods is a serious obstacle to the workflow of the average user. BIAB has thousands of features, but many of them are so hidden and / or convoluted that most users will never discover or use them.
A perfect example was given by Misha a few posts ago:
Originally Posted by Rustyspoon#
Being able to partially regenerate any track from the tracks view is a great feature, but how can anyone not familiar with the program discover that? There's no contextual menu on the track wiew showing that option, after selecting a section, right button does nothing, there seems to be no "regenerate" command on any of the main menus, no icon, nothing... The only way to regenerate seems to be memorizing one of the three different (but non customizable) shortcuts to access three different (but redundant) ways to do the same:
Come on, that's terribly confusing and counterintuitive!
Discoverability (how easily the average user can find the features in the interface) is one of the most important aspects of GUI design, and plays an essential role on improving the user experience. In this example (as with many others), the feature is there, but the probablity for an average user to discover it is virtually 0. That's why so many people find the program so difficult to use. That's why so many people say they use BIAB as little as possible, before moving the program to their DAW. And that's why identifying and reporting these anomalies is so useful.
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