I have a group of musicians that I periodically send my bass overlay recordings to and going forward, I want to standardize the loudness of my mixdowns. I’m exploring the new options in Studio One and fwiw I’ve selected the Streaming option with the Adjust Loudness box checked. I use M4A format.
I have several other loudness options available including EBU R128, AES Streaming, Public Radio -USA and many others.
The default for the Streaming option is -14.0 LUFS +/- 0.0 dB with a Max True Peak of -1.0 dB.
I don’t want to make any changes in my DAW regarding volume automation, the mix is where I want it to be. This is an export issue.
Now when I play back my mixdown using Windows Media Player with the Windows loudness control set to 50% the resulting volume of my mixdown is way too loud; to the point where it might be uncomfortable for someone using headphones. I was actually surprised by this.
There are a number of ways I could solve this problem but I thought I’d ask if there is a best way to standardize on loudness settings.
Is there a loudness standard for this sort of thing?
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
Confused. The purpose described ('this sort of thing') is passing a bass track to another user. But the question is about the mix. Can't you just send them your additional bass track, or is there more to what you want to send?
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I should have been more clear. The M4A files I am sending are entire mixes where I have removed the original bass guitar from the song (via stem separation) and replaced it with my bass recording. I'm not passing (sending) a bass track but rather an entire mix made up of guitar, keys, sax, vocals, etc., and my bass recording. This is what I mean by "bass overlay recordings".
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
FWIW I don't use those tools. I export the mix down as a wav file, bring it into Audacity, then normalize to -3.0dB. I probably could do it in Studio One Pro 7 but I like to listen to the song on another program. There have been a few times that I had to go back into my DAW, remix, then listen in Audacity. Then in Audacity you could export the song as a MP3 or any other file format you want.
This is an old habit that I got use to and see no reason to change. YMMV
I got banned from Weight Watchers for dropping a bag of M&Ms on the floor. It was the best game of Hungry Hippos I've ever seen!
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FWIW I don't use those tools. I export the mix down as a wav file, bring it into Audacity, then normalize to -3.0dB.
Yep, this is one of the many ways this can be done. I too like to listen in a different software (Windows Media Player), as a final check before sending. This is how I caught the extremely high loudness level mentioned above.
Of course, when you send an audio file to folks, you never know what software they will use to listen to it. Which is why I'm asking if there is a standard, or best practice for this.
The -3dB you use in Audacity, is that -3dB relative to what you exported from Studio One? Or is it -3dB from some absolute zero level in Audacity?
The process of attaining the "Goldilocks Level" (not too soft not too loud) is what I'm looking for.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
The -3dB you use in Audacity, is that -3dB relative to what you exported from Studio One? Or is it -3dB from some absolute zero level in Audacity?
The process of attaining the "Goldilocks Level" (not too soft not too loud) is what I'm looking for.
I have found that sometimes the Studio One mix down can sound different than the Studio One tracks. I have tried the -3dB in my DAW and sometimes Audacity doesn't change that level, however sometimes it did. So I quit using the DAW and only use Audacity. I have found that the Audacity wav or MP3 sounds good on the systems I tried them on, including SoundCloud. I admit I don't try them on a lot of systems but all I care about is my music computer, my Internet computer using Realtrek, a CD, and SoundCloud. YMMV
I got banned from Weight Watchers for dropping a bag of M&Ms on the floor. It was the best game of Hungry Hippos I've ever seen!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
I use this as well in Studio One Pro 7. The reason is I sometimes use backing tracks I put on my Ipad and I keep my volume consistent between songs. Also this is the standard anymore for streaming music. I have no reason to use another program to set my volume.
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Near the end of this article, you'll see a reference to "loudness meters". I have been using the free Youlean Loudness Meter 2 for many years. When the dev introduced the paid Pro version, I bought it to support him. Available for Windows and Mac.
Understanding Loudness Loudness is a subjective perception of the intensity of sound, usually measured in decibels (dB). It’s important to note that loudness differs from volume, which is the objective measure of sound pressure levels. The perception of loudness varies from person to person and can be influenced by factors such as frequency content and the listener’s environment.
The Loudness War For years, the music industry has been engaged in a so-called “loudness war,” where tracks are aggressively compressed and limited to achieve the loudest possible sound. This is done to make the music stand out when played back-to-back with other tracks, especially on the radio. However, this practice has a downside: it can lead to a loss of dynamic range and sonic clarity, as quieter elements in the mix are pushed to the background or lost entirely.
The Emergence of Loudness Normalization To address the issue of varying loudness levels, streaming platforms have adopted loudness normalization, a process that automatically adjusts the playback volume of tracks to ensure a consistent listening experience. This helps to prevent sudden jumps in volume when switching between tracks, providing a more enjoyable experience for the listener.
Loudness Standards for Music Streaming Platforms Different streaming platforms have their own loudness standards, measured in LUFS (Loudness Units Full Scale). LUFS is an internationally recognized standard for measuring loudness, which takes into account the human perception of loudness. Here’s a rundown of the loudness standards adopted by some of the most popular streaming platforms:
These standards are not fixed, and platforms may change their normalization levels in the future. It’s essential for artists and audio engineers to stay updated on the latest guidelines to ensure their music is optimized for each platform.
But here is the big secret! These LUFS goals suggested by the streaming services don’t need to be adhered to as much as people think.
In the Reverse Engineer Program, we teach our students the 2 loudness factors we should be worried about and why.
The 2 things that do matter:
The first thing that matters is finding a sweet spot between loudness and dynamics. Many Mastering Engineers will tell you they have commonly found this sweet spot at around -9 RMS (RMS is another loudness standard common in the industry). -9 RMS gives the music enough sonic energy to sound impactful but not squashed in terms of dynamics. These engineers aren’t worried about hitting an exact LUFS standard, they are simply looking at the relationship between loudness and dynamics.
These engineers also understand that at – 9 RMS, streaming services will be turning the final bounce down slightly. -9 RMS is equivalent to about -11 LUFS, so streaming services might turn it down to the Equivalent of 3-4 LUFS. And, the big secret is, it doesn’t matter. It’s not going to hurt your song to have them turn it down at this level. Many good Mastering Engineers even push their loudness levels way beyond -9 RMS and are ok that their music is turned down even more by the streaming services. Some people like a very compressed sound.
The second thing that matters is your true peak level. For many years mastering a song to an output ceiling of .01 DBFS was a fine standard. But as we have pushed the loudness levels higher in the digital age we have had to start worrying about what’s called, “Inter-sample Peaking”. These peaks are essentially rogue transients that break through the .0 DBFS ceiling and can cause problems with the algorithms used by streaming services. Best practice these days is to adjust the output ceiling on your limiter to -1.0 or even -2.0 DBFS. These ceiling thresholds will give any inter-sample peaks plenty of room to break through but not clip 0.0 DBFS.
Tips for Artists and Audio Engineers Maintain Dynamic Range: To prevent loss of dynamic range, avoid over-compressing and limiting your music. Remember that loudness normalization will adjust the playback volume, so there’s no need to sacrifice your mix’s dynamics to compete with other tracks.
Use a Loudness Meter: To ensure your music meets the loudness standards of streaming platforms, use a loudness meter that measures RMS or LUFS and understand how to read it correctly. This will help you monitor the loudness levels of your mix and make adjustments accordingly.
Aim for the loudness sweet spot: While it’s essential to be aware of the loudness standards for each platform, aiming for a target loudness of around -9 RMS should provide a good balance for most music.
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[quote=MarioD I have found that sometimes the Studio One mix down can sound different than the Studio One tracks. I have tried the -3dB in my DAW and sometimes Audacity doesn't change that level, however sometimes it did. So I quit using the DAW and only use Audacity.YMMV [/quote]
This is not a burning problem for me, it's actually more of a curiosity/improve my audio engineering skills kind of thing.
I'm going to try keeping everything else constant in my workflow and experiment with reducing the default -14 LUFS to find the Goldilocks for my system, hopefully that will work for others when they recieve my tracks. If not, I'll adjust accordingly.
You mention mileage varying. Part of my "varying mileage" is involving only one DAW in my workflow. This is because when future problems or questions arise (and I know they will) it's a ton easier to explain and troubleshoot if only one DAW is involved. Sometimes the Studo One forum might be involved and the cats over there might not even use Audacity at all.
Plus I notice that Audacity can't import M4A files without the FFmpeg library. Now I certainly could download it but it's just another variable in the equation that itself will also require periodic updates. Or I could export as WAV do my thing in Audacity and then export as M4A, but now I've got 2 formats involved instead of just one. Since Windows Media Player is just a player it's not stepping on my recordings in any way thereby keeping my workflow simple.
I'm also curious as to why Studio One includes so many different loudness options; I count 15 plus a custum option. This tells me that maybe more than just "simple" loudness is happening. And I see that there are other posts below that I haven't yet read. Maybe they address this.
Also, note that I think most of these curiosities go away when we upload to SoundCloud because each track is processed at their site to (amoung other things) ensure that loudness levels on their platform are consistent from track to track and musician to musician.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
Also, note that I think most of these curiosities go away when we upload to SoundCloud because each track is processed at their site to (amoung other things) ensure that loudness levels on their platform are consistent from track to track and musician to musician.
Each one of us has different workflows that works best for them.
If you listen to different artists on SoundCloud the volumes from track to track can and do vary, thus they are not consistent. Also what format you upload to SoundCloud has a lot to do with the sound. I have found that uploading wavs are the best format. Try upload different file formats and you will see what I mean.
I got banned from Weight Watchers for dropping a bag of M&Ms on the floor. It was the best game of Hungry Hippos I've ever seen!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
I use this as well in Studio One Pro 7. The reason is I sometimes use backing tracks I put on my Ipad and I keep my volume consistent between songs. Also this is the standard anymore for streaming music. I have no reason to use another program to set my volume.
Brian, you and I have similar philosophy. For the reasons I say above, I don't want more than one DAW in my workflow. This way, if I (or someone else) doesn't like the way my mix sounds there's only one place to look to solve the problem . . . Studio One. My engineering brain has always served me well when it tells me, "minimize the variables wherever possible".
But other's mileage may vary, which is all fine.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
There is some great info here. I’ve had to work my way through the various services excellently described above by The Maartian, tried plugins like Loudness Penalty etc. In the end, I think Mario has it right: send your audio in the best quality they accept, and let them do what they are going to do anyway. Gaming the system is a futile effort.
I first ran into this with my songs on FM radio (anybody remember that?) and during my time doing voice overs spent time talking with their engineers, since I could speak their language. They showed me how they squash the life out of the dynamic range to make everything you hear equally hot. It was useless to try to tweak your song when they were going to do that. And every station was different. Things really haven’t changed, just the platform.
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My favorite loudness meter is bx_meter. It is now included in the free bundle form Plugin Alliance. I no longer recall what I paid years ago but I’ve always thought it was worth every penny. Now that it is free…
I first ran into this with my songs on FM radio (anybody remember that?) and during my time doing voice overs spent time talking with their engineers, since I could speak their language. They showed me how they squash the life out of the dynamic range to make everything you hear equally hot. It was useless to try to tweak your song when they were going to do that. And every station was different. Things really haven’t changed, just the platform.
Yep. Having gotten my start in radio, too, I couldn’t agree more.
I have done a lot of mastering by Christian artists for the K-LOVE radio network. This is a nationwide chain of 10W stations. They squeeze the life out of all program material so that the signal remains intact at the furthest edge of the signal range. The only hope anyone has is to use someone like me to pre-squash the signal while trying to keep the sound intact. By doing this, one stands a chance that it sounds the same once the track hits their brick wall limiters. This is not as simple as it may sound. A kick or bass 1/2 dB too loud will ruin a track while 1/2 dB too low will cause it not to be heard at all.
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Mike, right on, as we used to say. Yeah, bass is a tough nut. And Steve, the OP, plays bass.
We can arm wrestle to decide which is the better verb: squash or squeeze! Both are equally damaging.
You also have tons of experience. Would you agree with the other basic statement I made: "In the end, I think Mario has it right: send your audio in the best quality they accept..."?
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
The first thing that matters is finding a sweet spot between loudness and dynamics. Many Mastering Engineers will tell you they have commonly found this sweet spot at around -9 RMS (RMS is another loudness standard common in the industry). -9 RMS gives the music enough sonic energy to sound impactful but not squashed in terms of dynamics. These engineers aren’t worried about hitting an exact LUFS standard, they are simply looking at the relationship between loudness and dynamics.
These engineers also understand that at – 9 RMS, streaming services will be turning the final bounce down slightly. -9 RMS is equivalent to about -11 LUFS, so streaming services might turn it down to the Equivalent of 3-4 LUFS. And, the big secret is, it doesn’t matter. It’s not going to hurt your song to have them turn it down at this level. Many good Mastering Engineers even push their loudness levels way beyond -9 RMS and are ok that their music is turned down even more by the streaming services. Some people like a very compressed sound.
The second thing that matters is your true peak level. For many years mastering a song to an output ceiling of .01 DBFS was a fine standard. But as we have pushed the loudness levels higher in the digital age we have had to start worrying about what’s called, “Inter-sample Peaking”. These peaks are essentially rogue transients that break through the .0 DBFS ceiling and can cause problems with the algorithms used by streaming services. Best practice these days is to adjust the output ceiling on your limiter to -1.0 or even -2.0 DBFS. These ceiling thresholds will give any inter-sample peaks plenty of room to break through but not clip 0.0 DBFS.
This is the most thoughtful post so far, once again, it's a shame there is no PDF repository here to capture the best material in concise form. I know there is a Tips and Tricks forum but I don't have the time to wade thru a lot of unrelated stuff that is there.
I am aware of the engineering quantity RMS (Root Mean Square), have used it many times outside of audio and can see how that could be an important parameter in audio engineering.
And I should never had mentioned SoundCloud in passing, my curiosity doesn't involve streaming or broadcast services right now. Nobody has complained that my SoundCloud uploads were unacceptable. Rather, this thread is about track sharing with others.
So getting back on "track", I knew this would be an easy issue to solve. Upon a bit of system examination I found my interface setting was not at 50%. Making this change, the default "Streaming" setting now works fine and passes the "Windows Media Player Litmus Test". Max Loudness: -14 LUFS +/- 0.0 dB Max True Peak: -1 dB
An important variable that I don't believe has been mentioned thus far is the Main output level. This I'm leaning toward standardizing at 0 dB. In my previous workflow, this is what I would adjust to reach the goldilocks sweet spot for playback purposes. With Studio One's export loudness options I won't have to adjust this any more . . . or that's the hope.
One bottom line is that there are several loudness settings (software and hardware) and they all have an impact on monitor and headphone outputs. Another bottom line, is kudos to Presonus they are always at least 2 steps ahead of me.
Edit: A 3rd bottom line is that software and hardware are continually evolving. If you want to be in the game, you better keep up with the changes A task that is not always easy.
Last edited by Bass Thumper; 02/27/2511:34 AM.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
FWIW I use Logic Pro’s simple Loudness Meter and bounce to -10 to -12 LUFS. I then use Loudness Penalty’s free / no signup / no upload required website to see to what degree, if any, the streaming platforms would raise or lower my track. It takes about a minute. If I’m within + or - 2db or less I make no changes. BUT the primary objective with our productions is to get them placed on good streaming platform playlists. More fun having thousands of folks listening than just family and FB friends. Sorry if this is too far off topic. 😀
Bud
Last edited by Janice & Bud; 02/27/2512:37 PM.
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FWIW I use Logic Pro’s simple Loudness Meter and bounce to -10 to -12 LUFS. Sorry if this is too far off topic. 😀
Bud
Hi Bud, not too far off topic especially since I inadvertently brought up SoundCloud.
I just completed a bass overlay of Sweet City Woman (a semi-blue grass song) with my new found loudness options of -14 LUFS and -1dB Max Peak. If interested, send me a PM with your email and I'll send it to you for comment. --Steve
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: Using VST3 Plugins
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