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If you are checking this thread, then a) you're thinking about pitch correction software or b) you're using it now. Are you using it with PG Software? I've used GSNAP - a freebie - with mixed results - with my hearing loss, I find I suffer from "pitch drift" when vocalizing, often-times hitting flat and "sliding" up into a note. Yes singing every day can increase vocal control, BUT how can you tell if you're controlling "sharp or flat"??? Since "hearing loss" is in effect "frequency loss", musically that is also "harmonic loss" which means key frequencies in determining correct pitch, are missing. I can't determine a semi-tone + or - without concentrating - sometimes it can be as much as a whole tone which can be helped by playing a whole chord. And I'm talking about doing this WITH hearing aids. More than you want to know for sure.  So I've determined that I need some heavy duty pitch correction that does NOT rely on the accuracy of my ears in first determining what the wrong notes are. Graphically I've been trying to demo Melodyne Assistant but three seconds of demo is not much. But I really like the graphics used for their correction processing. Ultimately I need real ears to listen for post correction artifacts. But the tuning graphics are great. GSNAP is more of a challenge to fine tune but it is free. Melodyne is $250+ USD. Are any of you readers using Melodyne Assistant plugin with RealBand or Powertracks - how's it working for you? Are you using any of the other major pitch correction plugins with PG Products?? Strengths, weaknesses. I know other DAWS have their own native pitch plugins - let's leave those out OK? I'll keep using the PG Programs - it's the high-end pitch corr. plugins I'm interested in. Thanks for reading this . . . double thanks if you've got experiences to share. Ian
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Hi Ian. Good question.
I've used Melodyne Editor with DNA as a stand-alone program on a single audio track. It is cumbersome to use and requires careful buffer settings, but it works. It is the only solution for a track with more than one instrument.
On a stand-alone track, one instrument, I most often use the much more friendly Adobe Audition (formerly Cool Edit, still free if you can find it). Pitch correction up to one-half step normally shows no artifacts. Correcting more, up to a pitch and a half, sometimes does. What I like about Audition is that you can highlight a note and do pitch correction bends. It's a linear curve, but if you start a note flat and adjust upward, for example, you can fix that. Or, if that isn't enough, break up the note and fix it part by part. Again, this is tedious and I only do it on grievously 'out' notes. I tend to select only the last note in a phrase, which might stick in your head and lead to thinking the next phrase is 'out'. The rest of the 'out' notes I play make it real, and I leave them.
I have not experimented with any pitch correction in the PG Music family, because I learned Audition first and use that for all my .WAV file editing. I'll be interested to know what others say who have experience integrating pitch correction with PG Music products.
EDIT: sorry about your hearing difficulties. I'm glad I don't understand what you are going through. As a trumpet player formerly in a few loud bands, I've been fortunate that one ear is still excellent and the other is still adequate.
Last edited by Matt Finley; 09/06/10 09:56 AM.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Quote:
Since "hearing loss" is in effect "frequency loss", musically that is also "harmonic loss" which means key frequencies in determining correct pitch, are missing. I can't determine a semi-tone + or - without concentrating - sometimes it can be as much as a whole tone which can be helped by playing a whole chord. And I'm talking about doing this WITH hearing aids.
Disagree with that assumption.
It is the fundamental, the root, that one has to address.
That would translate to the lowest note or tone in the chord, uppers and especially partials and harmonics be damned.
Ear Training is what it takes.
--Mac
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I wasn't happy with that statement either, but not having experienced the type of hearing loss that Ian has, I was willing to cut him some slack. The good news is that Adobe Audition will easily identify and can fix the fundamental. Melodyne, though, with its ability to hear multiple pitches, can get confused with upper harmonics and sometimes has to be told which one is the fundamental. Since one sometimes see multiple pitches per note, one would need to be able to hear each to know what to adjust.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Matt - thanks for your feedback on Audition, ease of use and understanding in the graphic presentation is what I'm keying on. I remember Goldwave - while I was losing hearing when it came out, my loss was moderate and aids could compensate and so I didn't grab it when it was free and didn't need pitch correction. Since you've been with it have you noticed much change in its accuracy?? You know, if I could say that my hearing had been shredded by sound while playing in sold out stadiums, I could take some solace in the glory BUT  the loss is being caused by a systemic enzyme deficiency which is blocking very fine blood vessels in every cell including the hearing hairs. I'm not here to moan, but as Oren says "I am looking for clues" or "tools". Ian 
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Mac and Matt I respect both of your abilities you're great musicians. I've only lately come to understand about frequencies and harmonics and how they play in speech and music. I think "ear training" is much too simplistic a solution - I've had a very good "ear" but it's gone the way of the dodo with my hearing loss. But for the purposes of my thread I was trying to compact too much in too short a space. There is a great discussion going on in the hearing aid world given the capabilities of newer digital aids. Old school audiologists still believe in the analog theory of "speech frequencies" first and apply it to digital aids. Digital aids are capable of much much more and can have a separate audio program set up on board for music. If only all audiologists will take the time. Read the link way below. But there is a fundamental difference in how "speech" and "music" are treated for those who have severe hearing losses. You can't hear if the frequencies aren't there - regardless how good your ear training is. In order to hear your root notes you have to be able to have a well-balanced hearing loss below 1000Hz - this is a challenge for hearing aids. I am not an expert, so you can question what I say from your own experiences and musical training. Speech loss compensation calls for boosting 1-2.5 Khz - that's where the consonant sounds are for clarity. Does it not make sense that "music" would be somewhat skewed if a person needed a 80 db boost in those frequencies to even hear them? I need almost 100db. What is the impact on the root notes? Not noticeable? But there are audiologists that don't bother so much about tweaking the on-board music program. Here is a good link to explain what I am trying to say Hearing Aids and Music Thanks for reading. Ian
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Good link. As I have a little hearing loss in one ear, compliments of my father's family, I did not learn anything new here, but it is very nice to have an article about hearing as explained from the perspective of a musician. One point here is that all the frequencies help for music, not just the fundamental. I have a minimal 'traditional' hearing aide for picking out conversation in large rooms, but it is worse than useless for music performance on stage.
Ian, that's a terrible problem you have described. Best of luck dealing with this challenge. See if you can find Cool Edit Pro for free and give it a try.
Oh, and I never tried Goldwave.
Last edited by Matt Finley; 09/06/10 01:22 PM.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Well I'm eating Tiger Cat humble pie for supper and moaning. My hearing loss is somewhat better but I suffer from that area where the speech runs together and I don't understand it. My wife for example has to be in front of me about 2 feet and talking at me. The same for all women really.
The good news is that the top 15 or so notes on the 88 key piano sounded the same after the last treatment. Now just the top 2 sound the same. I have a very large amount of thick fluid in my ears and they are going to try the tubes to see if I can lose some and hear better. The biggest potential problem is that more side effects keep showing up. The cisplatin may or may not have reduced the 'hairs' as I was told and this can be a long term problem.
If I could only sing again. In fact talk any amount. The first hour in the morning I have to cough all time, and I wake up 4 to 10 times at night with no moisture in my mouth. Just something else to moan about. The good news is no sign of any bad cells in my neck as of last week.
I wonder Ian if you should look at some hardware. I know it's a budget item, but maybe you need to do what the fire department did when wanting a micro wave for a new fire station, they called it a micro wave radio device for $600.00. After it showed up there was screaming. Maybe you can get the government to fund the thing with some creativity. Check out the VoiceLive 2 by TC Helicon. I have the VoiceLive. I'm hopeful it will get some use yet.
They do have a number of smaller new products, check them all out for that matter.
Argooooooooooooooooos (jeez)
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Beethoven suffered a total hearing loss, yet he still knew when the orchestra was out of tune when he conducted pieces that he wrote after the deafness occurred...
My point being that there must be other ways to experience the fundamental plus the reinforcement that takes place when other tones are in tune with it as versus the energy loss of not being in tune.
*Get a cheap guitar and practice matching the strings. Use your left hand to cup the neck tight and FEEL the beats that happen when two identical notes are close, but not quite in tune.
Handicaps are for overcoming.
--Mac
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It's the sudden handicap after years of not having it that's the problem.
Part of it is mental for sure. Having to tell people that you can't understand them is very hard, they think you hear and you don't.
As far as music is concerned, you need a lot of motivation to try and work through things. If other interests are there, it's easier to ignore the one issue and move to the other.
If only I was LVB.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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John Wish my Roughies were still here to do the Argos damage. Sorry Bud . . . no sympathy. The Cats were my first team when I was young - loved the black and gold. Argos are more black and blue these days. Sounds like you've got major tissue rebuilding going on with all of that lung/ear fluid and the dry mouth. It's strange telling people - hey I can hear you fine but I don't have a clue what you're saying. That's the consonant frequency loss (appro 1-2.5)being overridden by the vowel frequencies centered around 500hz. It's called the hearing banana - seriously - look it up. No bad cells is definite good news. As for equipment and software I'm trying to swing that now through ODSP under employment supports. Meetings next week. Ian
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Thanks, Ian. Yes, it's analog. Quite old now. Drop in the midrange only, not worth pursuing further at this time since the highs remain OK.
Good luck with your quest.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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The last frequencies to usually go are the lower root frequencies but of course not always. With whatever residual hearing you have left you do have to relearn how to hear. Especially with no aids. Take mine away and I could probably hear 120 Hz and below if the db level was at least at 80. Hearing aids give you nothing below 120 - they are primarily for speech. Beats even with hearing aids are hard to hear. Beethoven was a wonder, but I'm guessing he had some residual hearing but was deaf to conversation. Remember orchestras can peak at 110 db can't they. And if you have some root level hearing you can hear the vibes by placing your ear against the piano. I'll have to look more into how he did. Appreciate the thoughts here Mac - I'm not for giving up - I started the thread looking for software and/or technical advancements so I can keep doing what I love. Right now I some info on the use pitch correctors with PG Products. Ian
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We had a musical/medical lecture series run by the University 2 years ago. Doctors and Musicians formed a panel. Each evening for 6 they had a subject (one was Beethoven). The wife and I made 4 of the series.
It was interesting to note that they thought that like many deaf people, who hear nothing then when you raise your voice say 'you don't need to yell', he probably couldn't hear at normal levels, but near the orchestra his hearing returned. Very common.
As to low frequencies the challenge is to overcome the tinnitus in 2 frequencies that mess up even the nicest summer day.
On the other hand I don't hear the alarm clock (LOL), the microwave, the smoke alarm the crickets etc.
Good luck Ian, make a good case. I see TC-Helicon has a lot of new products in the low end you stick on the mic and use your guitar to control, maybe one of those is for you.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Hey Ian,
How about a customized setup that is a bit different from the average "hearing aid"?
I'm thinking here about a good set of stereo earphones, coupled to an amplifier that has significant EQ control and two mics located on the headset for pickup.
Fullrange hearing boost with the ability to translate the music frequencies to areas where your hearing is best, or at least able to really boost the areas where the hearing loss lies, looking, of course, for the fundamentals of the notes at the least.
I have a sports headset like that in some respects. These were designed for hunters and outdoorsmen to wear and enjoy a full stereo set of "Wolf's ears" when out in the field. Unbelievable increase in awareness, these items are also now being used by certain police agencies and also special forces.
Imagine something like that set of Wolf's Ears, but with the sound processing abilities needed for the hearing impaired to possibly restore the ability to hear and enjoy fullrange music again?
We have the technology, as they say...
--Mac
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Morning John The theory is that tinnitus arises because the near-dead nerve endings ("hairs") have nothing to hear so they create their own "sound". Mine comes and goes. I have one pattern that sounds like baritone Gregorian chants, and another that sounds like a pneumatic drill off somewhere deep in the bowels of my apartment building and a third that is reminiscent of a motorboat way off on a lake running across choppy water. Never a dull moment I use a "light" alarm - a timer actually - really works well . I sleep through fire alarms all of the time. Being on the ground floor, I can get out fast. But I have a lovely neighbour who can hear well and decides whether I should be awoken - what a hoot! . I am surprised that your medical team hasn't run you through an audiometer test - just to see where you hearing is - they probably feel things haven't settled down repairing themselves yet. Tough being patient though. What? No response to my "Argo" comments??? Ian
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They was robbed. I watched that game, all of it. The first interference penalty was a sham. Way worse was done to Argo receivers. Such is life in that stadium. Oh well. Why they didn't use the main weapon all game baffles me.
On the repair thing they blame everything on the radiation and chemo so I'm supposed to wait a year. Right.
I used to work with the ?Canadian Society?...whatever it's called. They had a barrage of products, stuff you put under the mattress that vibrated one way for phone, crying babies, fire alarms, door knocks etc. Strobe lights. All this stuff was subsidized right?
Anyway we decided to head to Temiskaming and the cabin for a 10 day vacation. I was waiting for the family to leave we had my parents 60th wedding celebration and they came from out west back 'home' before their kids started school. My youngest sister still has school aged kids, the other 4 of us are beyond that. Hunting season starts Sept 15, maybe a few grouse in the pot and some fishing. Ought to be quiet, I hate July up there, we are in the middle of nowhere but moron kids show up with those 'watercraft' and cruise past our cabin doing 100 km an hour, sounds like someone started a chainsaw in the kitchen. Makes me want to haul dead tree trunks into the narrows.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Hi Mac
What you propose is intriguing. While digital hearing aids are amazing, the audio info is still dependent on pin-head mics and speakers, and the mics can receive up to 105 without distorting - at least in the ones I have. There are also 8-band equalizers on board which are tweaked through software. But I'm not sure I wouldn't do better recording vocals if I could dispense with the aids in the chain and rig headphones to do the same thing.
I had also given some thought to a headphone setup with a 10 band eq for each of the left AND the right side. That might enable me to take out the H-aids and just go with the headphones with each side adjusted to the particular ear's loss. Hearing loss is not uniform in both ears for me - so there is an added challenge - hence the need for separate 10 band eqs.
Carrying it further, perhaps an in-the-ear monitoring system like Westone would work if I had the dough.
So the problem is, when I record my voice, I need to be able to pick up (ear) enough musical information in the root freequencies from the backing tracks so that I can stay on pitch - it's not so much an across the board "volume" issue as much as it is a "some frequencies" volume issue. I'm surprised how a-tonal a note can become for me when certain frequencies are not present. I can take my pitch information from the bottom four strings of the guitar by playing the four strings of a chord one at a time. Once I start to strum, I lose it the pitch info.
The same thing happens with the backing tracks when I record - too much info and I lose pitch - I do better if I record with simple backing and percussion. I also get more pitch information listening to my bookshelf speakers while recording, less info using headphones. But recording using this setup with no phones gives me a more accurate pitch, it also gives me more bg stuff because I can't isolate myself from the speakers. The noise (bg tracks) is the tradeoff for better pitch. Know of a really good directional mic?
Whatever setup I can figure out, I'm still going to need a good pitch correction software. But most of the battle is being able to receive enough pitch information during recording - whether it can come via headphones with no H-aids, or with a properly adjusted hearing aids. My ultimate goal is producing a good demo for my songs.
Ian
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John Quote:
All this stuff was subsidized right?
Some yes some no. Ontario has the ADP program. Assistive Devices Program. Probably need a medical signoff on it.
Logs in the narrows, eh? Just picturing a James Bond flying boat here. Things we'd love to do.
Should be quieter now that school's back. Don't get a sore trout, eh? 
Ian
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Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Windows!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: VST3 Plugin Support
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® now includes support for VST3 plugins, alongside VST and AU. Use them with MIDI or audio tracks for even more creative possibilities in your music production.
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Macs®: VST3 Plugin Support
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: Using VST3 Plugins
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