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Long story short: When attempting to load a BiaB 2025 song into RealBand 2025 Build 5 the error message in the title of this post shows up and most of the complicated chords like Aadd2 are stripped out of the chord sheet. Anyone seen this or have any notion as to why? PGMusic helpdesk is aware and has the file, but couldn't diagnose right away, so thought I'd ask the RB group. Found I COULD rebuild the song in RealBand since the chords aren't really "invalid" but thought I'd try the work-smarter-not-harder approach first.  THANKS! UPDATE: PGMusic contacted me and said add2 chords don't work with RB. I think they mean add2 chords can't be IMPORTED, since I can enter add2 chords and they play fine. It's just that add2 chords will be stripped out when loading a BiaB song.
Last edited by DC Ron; 05/01/25 04:59 PM.
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Well there's yer problem Good catch
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I hope Jeff Y is across this, as he is always instrumental in quickly resolving such potential issues.
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Confirmed and reported, bug id# 4996
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Until this is fixed, it turns out that chords such as "Aadd2" and "Badd2" are actually the same exact chord (in both RealBand and BB) as "A2" and "B2" based on looking at the map that defines which intervals are present in each chord type. I would have expected that "2" chords would be defined without the 3rd included (or the 3rd defined as flat) but they are defined with the 3rd, 5th, and 9th included which is the same way that "add2" chords are defined in the map. If you change the chords to just "2" chords you'll get the same results as "add2" without the error occurring.
Thanks.
Last edited by Jeff Yankauer; 05/07/25 04:21 PM.
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Jeff, that's good to know, if somewhat surprising. Would have sworn that at least some of the BiaB RTs play without the 3rd, like in an old school guitar power chord. Appreciate the tip, will experiment with that.
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Yeah, I've entered C2 in some songs and I've heard it played without the 3rd and include the 2nd (which is what I would expect), but then again, I've also seen it omit the 2nd and just play a regular major chord as was the case when I tried entering C2 with the ZZJazz style.
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As long as I can remember, BIAB/RB has never properly supported an add2 or a sus2 chord. As has been stated, sometimes you get the "3" (an add2 chord) and sometimes you don't (a sus2 chord). Also, the A2 designation is used whether it's an add2 or add9 (the octave being the difference, but BIAB doesn't differentiate).
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As long as I can remember, BIAB/RB has never properly supported an add2 or a sus2 chord. As has been stated, sometimes you get the "3" (an add2 chord) and sometimes you don't (a sus2 chord). Also, the A2 designation is used whether it's an add2 or add9 (the octave being the difference, but BIAB doesn't differentiate). The problem often comes down to MIDI vs RealTrack. With MIDI styles we're usually able to handle every chord, since MIDI notes can be added or moved or changed easily, but with RealTracks we're stuck with whatever the musician recorded. Sometimes they don't record every single possible chord - this can be due to a number of factors, the most logical of which is whether it's possible to play such a chord (6 strings on a guitar can be quite limiting when a complex chord has more than 6 notes), and also whether such a chord is contextually appropriate for the genre (for example a C7susb9#11b13 may be useful for jazz but not so useful for punk rock). As well, data storage was a limiting factor not that long ago, and RealTracks from the early years may be missing some of the more complex chords in an effort to reduce bandwidth and storage space.
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Simon,
All you said is intuitive, correct and good information but doesn't really explain why PG Music combines some chord labels under one label.
I'm not sure I know enough chord theory to provide a good example but several examples are given in earlier posts to this thread.
My thought is since BiaB started as a midi based program the program should be able to accept and display almost any chord. In cases where the displayed chord does not match RealTrack audio, the RealTrack transcription should be updated to display the recorded chord.
I know I for one use BiaB as a learning tool. Learning how a chord sounds is difficult if not impossible when the chord displayed does not match the audio playback.
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I tend to agree with all said here, especially Simon's comments. I often play with a friend who plays the keyboards and when practicing certain songs that have some more let's say complicated chords he might play the extentions while i play the simper chords on the guitar. The crowd hears the proper notes and are none the wiser. I find a good way to solve this in a recorded song is to use a midi track for something like the piano and then add the guitar part more simplified. Just my take nothing earth shattering or fancy but it works.
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Simon,
All you said is intuitive, correct and good information but doesn't really explain why PG Music combines some chord labels under one label. Because it's much better to have something play than nothing. If you entered an Add2 chord and one of the RT's didn't have any Add2's, would you prefer for the RT to play a Sus2 or would you prefer that instrument drop out completely for that chord? I'm not sure I know enough chord theory to provide a good example but several examples are given in earlier posts to this thread.
My thought is since BiaB started as a midi based program the program should be able to accept and display almost any chord. In cases where the displayed chord does not match RealTrack audio, the RealTrack transcription should be updated to display the recorded chord.
I know I for one use BiaB as a learning tool. Learning how a chord sounds is difficult if not impossible when the chord displayed does not match the audio playback. That's a good idea, I'll suggest it.
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Because it's much better to have something play than nothing. If you entered an Add2 chord and one of the RT's didn't have any Add2's, would you prefer for the RT to play a Sus2 or would you prefer that instrument drop out completely for that chord? Would not the logical behaviour in the absence of an add2 be to simply play the triad?
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Would not the logical behaviour in the absence of an add2 be to simply play the triad? I think Sus2 would be better than a major triad. If I want a 2, I'd rather a different flavour of 2 than no 2.
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Would not the logical behaviour in the absence of an add2 be to simply play the triad? I think Sus2 would be better than a major triad. If I want a 2, I'd rather a different flavour of 2 than no 2. Aye. I was more thinking of the alternative to "drop out completely". I was a little in two minds about triad or sus2, but I think it probably depends mostly on what the melody is playing against the chord. Whether or not the melody has the '2'. That may be a tricky question even if the melody is present in the project. Probably impossible for a backing-only work.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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Aye. I was more thinking of the alternative to "drop out completely". Ahhh gotcha. There is a hierarchy in place for when certain chords aren't available as to what is "close enough" to replace it, to avoid having it drop out completely. I was a little in two minds about triad or sus2, but I think it probably depends mostly on what the melody is playing against the chord. Whether or not the melody has the '2'. That may be a tricky question even if the melody is present in the project. Probably impossible for a backing-only work. Yep, it would come down to a song-by-song basis. If it doesn't sound good, at least it's not hard to change it.
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There is a hierarchy in place for when certain chords aren't available as to what is "close enough" to replace it, to avoid having it drop out completely. Simon, is the chord hierarchy documented in a file accessible to users? If not, should it be? If so what is the best search term and location to hunt for it?
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While you are at it .. what are the colonel's secret spices?
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I don't use RealBand and thus do not read the forum for it, but Jim alerted us to the topic being discussed.
Blast it, I've been writing the same thing for decades about the 2 chords. Very few listen. All you have to do is read the chord shortcut description in the file, /BB/data/pgshortc.txt
; Note these are already defined in BB, and you can't over-ride these shortcuts
;sus2@2 add2@2 m+@m#5 dim7@dim 7aug@7+ sus4@sus 11@9sus 9sus4@9sus
;13sus4@13sus add9@2 7sus4@7sus s@7sus h@m7b5 d@dim J@MAJ7
; f@7b9 m7+@m7#5 NC@C. no chord l@7Alt u@(Blues) 7u@7(Blues)
; Lyd@lydian Lyd@lyd Lyd@4#
This to me clearly implies that BIAB handles sus2, add2, and add9 chords the same as a 2 chord. All four chord types give you the same thing. PG Music, is that wrong?
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Simon, is the chord hierarchy documented in a file accessible to users? If not, should it be? If so what is the best search term and location to hunt for it? I believe it's part of the "secret sauce". I'm also pretty sure it's done on a case-by-case basis depending on the RealTrack in question. While you are at it .. what are the colonel's secret spices? I'll give you a hint - the first one is: This to me clearly implies that BIAB handles sus2, add2, and add9 chords the same as a 2 chord. All four chord types give you the same thing. PG Music, is that wrong? I've personally seen some RealTracks that have both sus2 and add2 chords in them. These would be some of the newer "12 key" RT's - don't ask me which ones though, I don't remember.
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