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Key changers, MP3, Wav, etc. software versions especially. Does anyone have any working experience with them?
1. Do any of them actually work, without coloring the sound to the point where it is nearly unusable?
2. Do the karaoke machines, ie; vocopro, singing machine etc, do any better job than the software PC versions?
The ultimate goal is to occasionally use prerecorded karaoke tracks to do a quick set. If I build the songs in RB, it takes awhile and getting all the instrumentation is sometimes a problem to do it well, such as a signature Pedal Steel Solo. Real Track PSG is great for what it can do, but it does have it's limitations.
If I buy a CD+G, or an MP3+G that sounds very close to the original, I may need to move the key up or down one or two steps for my range. Usually this results in artifacts, coloration, or major pollution to the track, making it unusuable, which forces me to do my own arrangement that may lack some of the signature elements.
Any ideas?
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I have an Idea.
Please do your own unique tracks. It's the only way we soloist will ever escape the " Oh he's just doing Karaoke" stigma.
To answer your question up or down a half step is OK.
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Toucher,
You mentioned using Realband to build-up arrangements but have you tried loading an mp3 (or ripped wav file) into it and using the PGMusic "Pitch Shift" (found under audio effects) to alter pitch. Pitch Shift allows for adjustment in "granularity" which could help reduce artifacts. (I just tried loading a wav file into RB and moving it up in semitones. It didn't sound too bad when I only moved it one or two semitones.)
Regards,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2025
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Thanks for the input guys, Haven't tried the RB pitch shift, but the older version of PTPA did not do well.
John; I do build most of my own tracks, but there are certain songs that require a particular solo instrument that I can't play at least not well enough, especially country tunes with solo Pedal Steel. Have you found a work around for this type of issue.
Thanks
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I don't have any experience with the 'machines' like Karaoke.
With software, the answer is, "it depends". Some musical sources work well enough, and some don't. I agree with John and Noel that a pitch change of 1/2 step is usually OK. Maybe you can push that to a full step. I had to take a song a minor third up once, and like you said, the 'color' of the sound changed substantially; it sounded 'hollow' and I did not want to use it, but the client insisted.
Use the best quality file you have to start with. Pitch shifting a .WAV file will be more likely to work without artifacts than the same shift on a .MP3 version of the same file. I listen particularly to cymbals; they seem to be the sound that degrades most and sounds odd when pitch shifted.
RealBand is not something I use, so I did not know there was a pitch shift capability. Impressive! For at least 15 years, I have used Adobe Audition (once Cool Edit) for all stereo .WAV file editing, and their pitch shifting algorithm is the best of the editors I've tried.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Toucher, i struggle with the same issue. I have bought tracks at certain sites, but sometims they are in a key that have problems with, so i try to shift it and with little success, so far i have used mostly midi, but as we all know the guitar sounds cheap in most. I try to process, but it does not always come out well. Have you tried this site i bought three or four a few weeks back and they are great. http://www.karaoke-version.com/ they sell tracks that are multitracka dn you can mix them to a degree before playback. Plus you can shift them a cent ot two. Some songs need that unique hook to make them right, others you can do your own take on the song.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2025, Realband, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 9 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app.
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Wave: http://goldwave.ca/or http://goldwave.com/Try it for free. Very simple - load the wav file, click Effect, Pitch, and either select a percent change or semitone(s) shift - this can be fine tuned to a particular pitch that may be slightly off A440. Glenn
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Actually PT and RB will do this too.
Load the wav file and right click the waveform. The Time Stretch/ Pitch Shift option is in there. Select the pitch shift option and try one the various presets they have built into there as far as method used. Try a few and compare by copying the original track to a few blank tracks, then do each one with a different algo and use the 'solo' button to allow just clicking from track to track to compare.
(that's often how I A/B different mixes and masters)
I have had very good results using the one included with RB and PT. I've also heard knowledgable users compliment it too.
Nice feature, as you can either tune it up/down in 1/2 steps, or you can actually keep the same pitch and shorten or lengthen it in time. Or a combo of both. Nice when you need a 30 second piece that ended up being 31.
Last edited by rharv; 09/16/10 02:12 PM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Toucher, I just sort of ignore all that and make the tunes my own. Good or bad. If you haven't heard some take a listen. Silvertones Tunes
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As an update, the RB pitch tool has worked better than anything I've tried so far, did the gold wave thing awhile back, but that was no better than anything else I've tried.
Do hardware karaoke players have a more advanced key changer function, the CD+G tracks that I've heard in karaoke bars etc, just don't seem to sound that bad, even at 2 to 4 semi tones.
But PG has done very well with the RB pitch shifter, works as well as anything I've tried, and it's built in.
Thanks PG
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Quote:
Thanks for the input guys, Haven't tried the RB pitch shift, but the older version of PTPA did not do well.
John; I do build most of my own tracks, but there are certain songs that require a particular solo instrument that I can't play at least not well enough, especially country tunes with solo Pedal Steel. Have you found a work around for this type of issue.
Thanks
If you must have a signature sound, here's one way to accomplish it:
1) rip the song you want to use, and pitch correct it until you can sing along comfortably
2) import the original or pitch-corrected wav into your project
3) send it to ACW to extract the chords and tempo map it
4) build a parallel version of the song with real tracks
5) it's also helpful if you can play some of the parts yourself to get the best duplication of feel, timing and nuance
6) cut out the vocal parts from the original wav, but leave the decorations in where there aren't vocals
7) blend the two tracks together just as you would introduce an additional instrument in a totally RB song (you'll probably need to adjust volume anyhere the original is phased in, because unlike adding a real track, this track will include all instruments, and therefore the volume will suddenly increase unless you compensate)
doing it this way, MOST of the song will not be pitch corrected. Only the decorations you merged in will have potential for artifacts. Depending on how you place these parts in the mix you stand a better chance of hiding anomalies.
A variation on this procedure is to use PGMusic's vocal redux plugin to remove most of the vocals from the original wav before you start adding real tracks... that way you won't have to compensate for the change in volume as the cut track comes in and out of the mix. But there will be residual vocals using this approach. I've had best results using the first procedure. You end up with a song that has no residual vocals, in a key you can sing, without artifacts, and with all the original signature licks.
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Wow, thanks Pat, quite the procedure, but it may well be worth it, I'll give that A try when I get caught up with some free time, and mental capacity 
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I do it similar to Pat, but I start with a midi file from the net. I will usually download two or three versions and see which I like the best.
Then process the midi tracks with Sampletank and TTS, and a few little note adjustments until I am happy with the overall sound.
Next remove any tracks I just can't stand the sound of, i.e. the bends and stuff sound horrible.
Add one or two RTs to give it a fresh sound.
Record any tracks I think I can play myself
Either sing in the recorded background tracks, or setup a midi track to fire the TC Helicon Voiceworks.
Mix the sound three ways, 1. on headphones to hear the little nuances, 2. on my studio monitors to get a solid baseline, and 3. on my PA speakers to hear what an audience will hear.
One trick i learned recently is when i buy a song on like karaoke-version and i open it in RB i also import a .kar midi file of the same song first, and set the tempo the same as the audio karaoke song, then bump the lyrics track around until the words are as close as possible, then delete all the music midi tracks, and leave only the lyrics track and the karaoke-version MP3 tracks. Waa Laa chords, lyrics and music pretty nice setup.3
Another cool thing i discovered recently is that in Sampletank they ahve a rather decent vocal sample collection. Nice sounding Ohhs and Ahhs. That is if you do not have a ton of not changes in the track for that. Some midi songs already have a vocal track that is firing some vocalish sample in TTS that sound stupid, so i pick a nice sounding sample fro ST, and listen. What I have found is that the notes start and end abruptly making it sound cheesey. If you open the piano roll and drag the notes until the over lap a tad it smooths them out. Plus if there are two three or even four notes "sang" then make thm all slighly different lengths so it sounds more human like. Lastly if there is a nice very simple strings track clone that and send that to the Ohhs and Ahhs it will sound great in the background. erase all but maybe two notes running at a time and it will sound like two backup singers. A couple songs sound so real now it is scary. At the party the other day one person asked who sang my backup tracks. It was Sampletank.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2025, Realband, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 9 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app.
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.
i have used a "pro" level karaoke machine called "acesonic" that handles key chages quite well, up to about a minor third up or down.
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I just bought a component level Karaoke machine at GC, it was hiding on the clearance rack for a silly $50 so i snapped it up, so far it is working great. I do not karaoke much any more with the RB tracks i have but sometimes friends come over and they get a kick out of it.
Anyway the point is it has a key changer in it, and i have tried it and it works pretty good for a few notches up or down.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2025, Realband, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 9 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app.
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