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Hi forum folks! I am guilty of writing and recording songs that plough on verse and chorus with no change or development. More recently, I’ve been thinking about how I can develop the arrangement of a song so that it keeps a listener engaged. I’ve listed some ideas I’ve used to achieve this, but wondered if you have some ideas to contribute as well?- Build up - starting off a song with minimal instruments, then building up e.g. drums and bass come in on verse 2 etc.
- Unpack - the opposite of the above - withdrawing instruments as the song goes through the outro
- Add more instrument layers - particularly for the chorus to provide ‘zing’. ELO we’re good at this back in the day.
- Add backing vocals or harmonies to the chorus or subsequent verses
- Modify the chord progression by adding chord variations e.g. swap major chord to the relative minor; add chord extensions; add quicker chord changes by using new chords from the same key. I first came across this device in a song by English group Stornoway ‘Zorbing’.
- Use a pre-chorus or a bridge to create tension/release or variation respectively
- Add a solo over a verse
- Use a breakdown - a stripped back verse or section, then ‘pow!’ when the full band comes back in.
Any other suggestions or techniques? Andrew
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Andrew, think you've got the major options captured (maybe add key change/modulation?). But, to me (only), the approach to keeping the listener engaged is way too organic to reduce to techniques. My objective is to create a musical narrative that is complimentary to and on equal footing to the lyrical narrative. The music flexes and BREATHES and leaves the listener wanting to hear what's next, often with a combination of gentle repetition and a subtle new twist.
Sorry, this explanation stinks, and not everyone will agree with it. But it's the beginning of how I think about music in the context of a song with lyrics...
DC Ron
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Too many guitars (is that a thing?)
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Andrew, think you've got the major options captured (maybe add key change/modulation?). But, to me (only), the approach to keeping the listener engaged is way too organic to reduce to techniques. My objective is to create a musical narrative that is complimentary to and on equal footing to the lyrical narrative. The music flexes and BREATHES and leaves the listener wanting to hear what's next, often with a combination of gentle repetition and a subtle new twist.
Sorry, this explanation stinks, and not everyone will agree with it. But it's the beginning of how I think about music in the context of a song with lyrics... Thanks Ron. I understand what you're saying, and recognise that we all approach things from perspectives or values. For me, I have to think explicitly about this, otherwise I churn out the same, although I have been sometimes surprised by an unthought action resulting in something cool. I heard someone say somewhere that a musical phrase repeated is good familiarity, but 3 or more times lessens the value - particularly if repeated in succession. Similar to your repetition and subtle twist comment. One of my challenges is that I tend to undervalue lyrics (they're just the vehicle for the music, right?), so for me, if there is any connection between the music and lyrics, it is either accidental or by design. I've heard you say before when writing and mixing that you go over repeatedly to 'hear' what the song is saying or what it needs - if I have understood that or expressed it appropriately. Andrew
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Andrew, yeah, I write songs differently for sure. Since I start with a complete set of lyrics, I perhaps have both limitations and flexibilities that others don't. At any rate, for me it's ALL about the lyrics and constructing a pleasant musical vehicle for the story. Anyway... I almost always storyboard a song in my head, sort of like an old style MTV music video. This will often include detail not explicitly in the lyrics, since the lyrics I get are often intentionally ambiguous. Then I'll find the "center" of the song/story lyrically. Sometimes this is obvious from the lyrics, like the song title, sometimes much less so, and I just make it up. Then I'll try to find a cool way to frame the lyrical center musically and work backwards from there building verses, bridges, solos, etc. All this being said, rock lyrics certainly can be complete gibberish, and there are lots of examples of this. But for people to listen, it STILL has to be cool sounding gibberish. My bottom line is, if I don't enjoy singing it, I don't think others will enjoy listening to it. Best case, others will one day be singing along. 
DC Ron
BiaB Audiophile
Presonus Studio One
ASUS I9-12900K DAW, 32 GB RAM
Presonus Faderport 16
Too many guitars (is that a thing?)
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Hi forum folks! I am guilty of writing and recording songs that plough on verse and chorus with no change or development. More recently, I’ve been thinking about how I can develop the arrangement of a song so that it keeps a listener engaged. I’ve listed some ideas I’ve used to achieve this, but wondered if you have some ideas to contribute as well?- Build up - starting off a song with minimal instruments, then building up e.g. drums and bass come in on verse 2 etc.
- Unpack - the opposite of the above - withdrawing instruments as the song goes through the outro
- Add more instrument layers - particularly for the chorus to provide ‘zing’. ELO we’re good at this back in the day.
- Add backing vocals or harmonies to the chorus or subsequent verses
- Modify the chord progression by adding chord variations e.g. swap major chord to the relative minor; add chord extensions; add quicker chord changes by using new chords from the same key. I first came across this device in a song by English group Stornoway ‘Zorbing’.
- Use a pre-chorus or a bridge to create tension/release or variation respectively
- Add a solo over a verse
- Use a breakdown - a stripped back verse or section, then ‘pow!’ when the full band comes back in.
Any other suggestions or techniques? Andrew — The problem with all such formulas is that they are useless. For every one song that may be interesting, there are three million others every month that are not. The 3,000,000 number comes from Spotify—that’s the number of songs that are uploaded monthly. How many are using formulaic—or worse, AI generated formulaic—composition and arranging? Nearly every single one. Your recipe is no better or worse than any other, I suppose, but it’s predictable. Predictable=boring and always has.
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Those are all good ideas. You can use some, or all, in a particular song, depending on the song. Each song is unique and requires attention to what the song actually needs.
Don't overlook the energy level in the song. I like to have a lower perceived energy feel to the verses and kick into high gear on the choruses and the bridge.
I like to simply call it forward motion. That means that I want some sort of forward movement in every section of the song. Something, no matter how subtle, needs to be different in the song as it moves from section to section. I've even split a verse in two using this method. It might be as subtle as the B3 organ coming in halfway through or it could be where the bass kicks in or some other instrument enters the overall picture. Swap the fill instruments in the verses. Maybe the first verse has guitar fills, make the next one have piano fills. Coming out of a powerful chorus into a sparse section with only the singer and an acoustic guitar followed immediately with a shot of silence, followed by the full band kicking back in...... very impactful. I used a few of these in a recent song called Liar. I'm always thinking as I'm writing, and producing, what can I do that sounds natural and adds interest to the song at this point?
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Yes, these are all good and workable ideas, as long as you do what you think sounds great. I like Mike's 'break the rules' also but perhaps without his pessimism, however accurate. You never know what will be a winner.
One of the things I do is add jazz horn and wind parts to songs by singer-songwriters, and I do build layers as we go. I also write instrumental 'hooks' that often become the more memorable parts of the song. Concentrate on the songwriting first, then your performance, and don't be afraid to find specialists who can produce and arrange for you.
In my genre (Brazilian jazz), I tend to write a more energetic opening intro, because I figure you only have a few seconds to catch the listener's interest before they click away. Then your plan of minimal orchestration in the first verse followed by more development later, might have more impact. I rarely 'unpack' at the end if I've built up the energy, but in some genres it can work.
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Hi all!
Thank you for your contributions to this thread! Your responses suggest there are many contexts that influence our songwriting creativity and what we might draw upon, and that my OP was probably shaped by my own.
Andrew
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how I can develop the arrangement of a song so that it keeps a listener engaged These are all really good ideas, but not for one specific song, rather to have them on hand when a song actually needs them. I'm a BIG fan of loud choruses where the drums make your ears bleed, but two songs ago ( this one), the song told me it didn't need any drums at all, so I just left them out. Or swimming against the tide, soft choruses and loud verses can also sound fantastic. Try out different things and let your own taste decide whether they contribute to the development of the song or not.
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i get song ideas from everyday life and tv/media.
in my case i got too many blinkin ideas and not enough time....sigh.
om
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs(90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
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Hello Andrew,
I think your suggestions are great, I appreciate you starting the post, and I like it that you took the time to start the conversation and to throw out some ideas, as opposed to just being another gloomy and negative negatron bashing ideas with nothing whatsoever constructive to offer.
To me that means you're a real songwriter in progress, so good for you!
😃
I encourage you to employ the ideas you've already created and to also explore others, because the more tools you have in your tool kit from a mixing and song building standpoint the better off you will be.
If you PM me I will send you a spreadsheet that shows you the mix from a well known Tom Petty song which uses a lot of the techniques you have mentioned plus others.
If I could add an additional train of thought it would be this:
The worst mistake people make in songs these days is they fill up too much of the space and make their mixes thick and chunky with no room to breathe.
When you listen to brilliant old school songwriters and producers from back in the day talking about the most important aspect of a mix they talk about "air": giving the mix plenty of space.
Unfortunately with technology, it's way too easy to just push buttons and spit out a bunch of tracks and chunks of sound and start stacking them on top of one another to create another musical slab of bacon.
Things that are created in a couple of hours or even a couple of days this way can be pretty thoughtless and horrific.
In order to achieve what I think you are trying to achieve and talking about, you have to slow down the pace, and be very careful and intentional about what you're doing, and even play some of the parts yourself if you're able so that the music has an authentic air.
On top of that you would only add in pieces of music that were necessary to develop the build, gradually increasing the intensity and energy level as you go into the rise and into the chorus, as you have rightfully alluded to, which indeed is songwriting 101.
I am sincerely glad that you are pondering and thinking about all of these things instead of just unloading another huge gigantic blob of blubber onto the market like so many other people are doing. I say hurrah.
If you want to also focus daily on the discipline of slowing down and thinking very carefully about the number of tracks that you actually need, eliminating all the tracks that you don't need, and making sure that your mix has plenty of open space, dynamics and air in it, I think you will be well on your way to achieving your goals. As you undoubtedly know, it's easy to be lazy. And it's hard to be good.
I have enjoyed listening to your work on the forum so far and I can't wait to hear more from your creative and productive mind.
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Hello Andrew,
...
If I could add an additional train of thought it would be this: The worst mistake people make in songs these days is they fill up too much of the space and make their mixes thick and chunky with no room to breathe. When you listen to brilliant old school songwriters and producers from back in the day talking about the most important aspect of a mix they talk about "air": giving the mix plenty of space. ... I have been thinking a lot lately about different 'textures' within a song - dynamics, instrumentation, but 'air' is one that I'll need to think about more. In a related way, I was thinking the other day about my lyrics, which normally arrive late or last - music mostly first - and because I usually start with a melody that I add lyrics to and humanise so that the em-PHA-sis is on the right syl-LAB-le, I don't have enough space in my lyrics phrasing, so it's just words after words after words ... So, your comment about air is relevant to me in more ways than one. Unfortunately with technology, it's way too easy to just push buttons and spit out a bunch of tracks and chunks of sound and start stacking them on top of one another to create another musical slab of bacon. Things that are created in a couple of hours or even a couple of days this way can be pretty thoughtless and horrific. ... Guilty, your Honour! I have usually focussed on one song at a time and found that this breeds impatience in me. "I've had enough - I just want to get the thing finished!" This means I haven't always made good choices or I've taken short cuts. Recently, I have worked on 4 songs at a time, and this means each song becomes fresh again, and time away from each in a mixing AND writing/arranging sense has given me better perspective. A bit like what you've done with Tom Petty, a couple of years ago I spent time analysing songs that I love to try and identify what I like about them musically - I should probably extend this to what they are doing in their arrangement. But ... don't we live in good times as far as what we have available to us? In order to achieve what I think you are trying to achieve and talking about, you have to slow down the pace, and be very careful and intentional about what you're doing, and even play some of the parts yourself if you're able so that the music has an authentic air. ... Lately, I've been relying on BIAB tracks for everything other than vocals. In part, this is to honour the forum and help showcase what BIAB can do - particularly as there is not a huge amount of 60s-90s Brit rock on the forum. But yes, I should get back to playing some tracks using my rudimentary skillset. I am also going to dabble with UserTracks to record some of my own - also as a back up for when my fingers start to fail. I have enjoyed listening to your work on the forum so far and I can't wait to hear more from your creative and productive mind. Thank you David! You are one of many on these forums that are very encouraging and supportive, and you help create a really good and safe culture for musicians who are at varying degrees of their journey. Andrew
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I like what David said. Air.
Essentially, giving everything it's own space in the mix.
This is accomplished by several things.
Use the minimum number of tracks possible. Just because you have 20 tracks does not mean you have to use them all.
Panning. Self explanatory.
Judiciously using EQ. For example, cutting the lows from the guitar will let it sit cleanly in the mix without mud.
Being aware of different instruments that share the same sonic space.
Use hard envelopes for volume. Don't let things ride at -20dB. If they are not the rhythm section, a fill or solo, they probably don't need to be there. Take them out totally. Don't create mud and chaos.
That's a good starting point.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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