Hi all, I have this song, (WSOP) it has already got (simple) repeats in it.
It had: A] an intro of eight bars
B] 16 bar verse
C] Eight bar organ solo
B&C are then repeated
D] a long outro
I had this set up right using a repeat around the verse and organ solo. Everything working fine. Then I messed up
So I was foolin around with improvising for 8 bars right before the Verse (as described above). It sounded good so I decided I would add eight bars of impro. I put a repeat in for the first 8. So now the srtructure starts A A . This worked, but often I don't need it. Now I can't get rid of it!
I don't know what BIAB means by a chorus, most of my stuff only vaguely follows the verse chorus structure and all in one BIAB "chorus". Anyway, the videos I find about repeats talk about redoing the number of repeat choruses for the whole song, not what I need.
How do you delete an eight bar repeat, yet leave the others intact?
ZZ - BiaB's chorus terminology is the jazz terminology. In other words it means to play and or repeat the entire song based on your chorus setting. For instance a 1-50-1 (the last on being the chorus setting) means play the song once through. A 1-50-2 means play the entire song twice. Etc Etc.
I do not even attempt to do as much work as you do in BiaB so the only advice I can give is to unfold the song. Once unfolded you would be able to delete those measures. I always start my songs in the unfolded mode. That is I would start with 1-100-1 then change the numbers of measures as need, example 1-72-1.
If one is only been use to the intro-verse-chorus-bridge-etc terminology then I can see the confusion with BiaB's terminology. As Matt indicated BiaB started out just for jazz players and although BiaB has expanded into other genres the chorus terminology stayed the same.
Dad, how will I know when I've become an adult.
When your day is ruined because they rearranged the grocery store.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Great reply Mario, thank you, I think you solved my problem. I have stayed away from any depth in BIAb because i personally have found that so much stuff just does not work as planned and I spend too much time working through weeds.
I am now going deeper because I have just formed a band and am using BIAB for stems and deeper forms of song construction
Adding a bit to what Mario says, I personally do use BiaB's repeats system as I want to be able to change the number of choruses, but I quite a while ago stopped trying to get BiaB to sensibly handle repeats and endings, especially if I have a melody. It seems always to screw up at least the melody.
What I do is use the song-form option to "end the song two bars early" (*), and then build a longer ending to replace the two skipped bars. It seems reliable, even if a minor nuisance. It doesn't of course work if one really needs to jump to a coda from earlier in the song. (I have no idea why BiaB does not support that!)
I think most people use the "one big chorus" approach, which is reliable for song creation, but a PITA if one wants to change the number of choruses at short notice.
(*) I think that's approximately the correct wording; I'm not on Windows at present, so I can't check.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2026 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
I think it is the design of the function. From a novices point of view it has booby traps and is obscure and counter-intuitive, It works in strange ways.
Firstly there are actaully two repeat dailogue boxes, in completely different places. One is found via the right click menu, whi=en hovering on a bar, which is fair enough, but the other could not be better hidden if you deliberately tried. Firstly, you have to discover that you need to click "Fake Sheet". This term Fake sheet has nothing to do with repeat functions as far as I can see. Although an experienced jazz player might know of it, I would say most learners (and BIAB is for learners) do not know what this term means and even when they do discover it, the menue is about repeats! Not only this, but the fake sheet option does not even appear on my screen. ypou have to click the black chevrons, next to which is a big space whichcoiuld have been used..... but I digress... Then the learner has to get used to teh idea of having a "dark grey" verse, which is hard to read, being the second "repeat" verse and having not one, but tow cursors to visually follow.
Really? Is this the best way to convey a second repeat - visually? On my screen it leads to a lot of jumping about as the screen resizes.
By default it is open at two different ending repeats with the hairpins, It should open IMO at the Simple repeat above. I have got the the "first and second endings" function working here but it was a challenge. If I click my way through repeat defaults i would expect a simple repeat and no dumping of copied bars.
I work in the Chord Sheet window, and I spend all my time looping the phrases i want to focus on. The looping function jumps about at teh best of times, one lcick away and you have lost it and have to re-loop. so often it displays a loop visually but marches on past it. Never touch teh spacebar is teh motto for learners. (which could have been set up to either obey or disobey loops in preferences).
It's like this all over BIAB. a labrinth with false doors IMO. I think the interface needs to have all its sub menues redesigned. Some have spin buttons but many do not even where it is required. Some menus. like the "Key menu" use far too much space and could be accomplished with simple tick boxes "Major?", Just set key options and a spin box for keys. The Start and End buttons (in the blackboard bit) should be spin buttons but are not, the "Choruses" button however is a table of numbers you have to click on, why not a spin button?
Menu items are odd. If i click on "Open Preferences" for example, elsewhere I expect a Preferences panel, not a folder. This should be called load preferences. By custom preferences is found in the Edit menu elsewhere, but in Band in a Box, it's in the Options menu - learners need to remember this too. These kind of rabbit holes and lack of consistency of design, throw cyclists of bicycles. This, coupled with the Windows 95 look, which millenials associate with toys, do the product no good and (IMO) drastically reduce its base. Having said all this, Band in Bpx is truly a fantastic product. I use it every day, much more than my Sequencer, CUbase 14. I do ha e ot confine myself to typing in chords for practice and simple use of songs.I never record in it. I don't use VSTs in it, after waiting many years for BIAB to join the 64 bit world, it simply crashed my VSTs and i have never been back. Still for day to day learning, of an instrument, it is the very best thing one can have. I feel sad
I think BIAB needs ot make much morenoise about real tracks - this should be via pictures of real humans, not "sillouttes" but rela gus and girls playing, all over the website and every tuition video should have 3=5 seconds of actual studio sessions where the sounds are recorded. This would bring home the live feel which is so important to this product.
So I was foolin around with improvising for 8 bars right before the Verse (as described above). It sounded good so I decided I would add eight bars of impro. I put a repeat in for the first 8. So now the srtructure starts A A . This worked, but often I don't need it. Now I can't get rid of it!
Go to Edit > Song Form > Repeats... then click the Edit List button. From there you can delete or edit the individual repeats in your song.
I think it is the design of the function. From a novices point of view it has booby traps and is obscure and counter-intuitive, It works in strange ways.....
I think I agree with just about everything in this post and also with Mario's suggestion to put it in the wishlist forum.
I can also, though, understand PGM's perspective... Every change one makes for the good risks breaking something. That can be particularly true of software that's been around a long time and has had many people contributing to it. People know their own areas of the code, but not necessarily how other areas interact with it. There's also the old adage, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". The difficulty is often more in deciding what's broken, or if it's really broken. With many of these things, "broken" is a perception with which one may or may not not agree.
A corollary to that is of being "too close to program". They know where and how to get to and use features, because they do it all the time for years. They know from experience to just avoid the trap doors. The same is true of experienced users ... they automatically do things in the ways that work, subconsciously avoiding the things that don't. I make no criticism by that; it's just what happens.
I think I'll stop there, before I start rambling on about other issues within the whole.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2026 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
A corollary to that is of being "too close to program". They know where and how to get to and use features, because they do it all the time for years. They know from experience to just avoid the trap doors. The same is true of experienced users ... they automatically do things in the ways that work, subconsciously avoiding the things that don't. I make no criticism by that; it's just what happens. .................................
At work when I was writing or in charge of those writing Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs) I would bring in a person whom had no idea about the procedure and have them follow the SOP. If they could do it the SOP was finished. If not it was rewrite times. We used to call it gorilla proofing. I should note that I was the gorilla a few times!
I hope PGM is really listening to new user problems as they are the SOP testers.
Dad, how will I know when I've become an adult.
When your day is ruined because they rearranged the grocery store.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Being classically trained to read the musical roadsigns, I attempted to use them in BB. No joy.
Just unfold it and do what you need. So much easier. Try starting in the second verse in a "repeats" song... in the unfolded version, you know exactly where you are.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
A corollary to that is of being "too close to program". They know where and how to get to and use features, because they do it all the time for years. They know from experience to just avoid the trap doors. The same is true of experienced users ... they automatically do things in the ways that work, subconsciously avoiding the things that don't. I make no criticism by that; it's just what happens. .................................
At work when I was writing or in charge of those writing Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs) I would bring in a person whom had no idea about the procedure and have them follow the SOP. If they could do it the SOP was finished. If not it was rewrite times. We used to call it gorilla proofing. I should note that I was the gorilla a few times!
I hope PGM is really listening to new user problems as they are the SOP testers.
I so much agree! Cubase, a program I have used for about 30 years, comes out with a total rewrite every now and then, and is better for it. BIAB needs a total rewrite, there are just too many weeds and bear traps. I have been using it since 2007, and before that on other peoples DAWS. I just do not use most features as they are too flaky and difficult to use. Even now, everytime I use BIAB it does not close properly and leaves a file helpfully called "t" which stops WIndows 11 closing. None of my many hundreds of other applications freezes, crashes or hiccups as much as BIAB. They just work.
What PG need to do desperately, is to get together a group of younger musicians, that have not used the product and give them a list of things to do, such as make and delete repeats, change real tracks etc, and really watch what actually happens, how people struggle or not. See how they struggle with the looping for example. It's one thing to have a function, another to have a function that actually works for the user, another to have a function that a user can actually find. It's also overblown, has too many options displayed in more than one place, bringing clutter and things do not work as expected. For yet another example, using the chord builder if you click "Close" tehn the chord builder dissappears, never to be seen again, until the program is closed and restarted. What i and any reasonable person would expect is for it to simply close the window and to be able to open it again. Another: In the Styles panel, top right, there is an instruction "type in a familar song title...." Below this is straight line (not a box) then some buttons, and below this a box. The box does nothing at all. If you try to write a song name in it, no letters appear, it is completely useless. Once you realise that the line above it is for this function, then you can morve on, but it is a bear trap because many users, particularly newbies, would go for the non sensical box as a text entry point, find it non functional and think the function is broken somehow. It's just bodgy programming. Here is another bear trap. I have my BIAB set up to "ASIO ALWAYS" note the word "always". This means that when I play back my tracks tehy are unaffected by the WIndows Volume Control - "Always" but no. Here we have a bear trap for users. If you are in Style Picker and playt a demo, this IS going bthrough Windows Audio. This means, that if you have the Windows VOlume cntrol set to zero, as I often do, you can click away on teh demos but you won't hear anything. Of course there is no clue as to why. it took me days to find out this. I also found that the level of the playback of style demos, varied too greatly and this was down to this function completely outside of Asio and Biab - the windows volume control. It is the sheer number of these bear traps that make BIAB function like an immature program in first or seconmd build. This together with the WIN 95 look the lack of consistency in sub menus, teh overcrowding of menus and teh lack of trumpeting of the real musicians used ion studios for Real Tracks (its freal saving grace) which is failing to bring BIAB into prime time, epsecially with younger audiences. As for Wish lists, I used to post, but nothing happened, sometimes for decades. PG was very late implementing 64 bit and VST support fro example. I just hope it get's a better more professional, economical, elegant and consistent look, a fix for the eternally aggravating loop dysfuctions and a proper rewrite. Z
[ We used to call it gorilla proofing. I should note that I was the gorilla a few times!
I think the world is divided into organisations that do that and organisation that think they know best.
We also had a guy who was an absolute wizard at breaking things and, of course, telling us how he broke it. It's far better to have our own guy throwing eggs in our faces then having customers do so.
I was usually too close to be a gorilla, but I encouraged their use. (No disrespect intended to gorillas, real or conceptual; no gorillas were harmed in the process).
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2026 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
A computer science colleague of mine used to put a book on the keyboard to see what the student's program did. My technique was different: I would grab someone from the hallway who was NOT a comp. sci. student, sit them down in front of the program, and watch what they did, see how deeply they got into trouble, and listen to what questions they had. Applying that here, take any musician (who should know what a repeat sign means) and ask them to modify it. What key do they press? What menu do they look in?
BIAB 2026 Win Audiophile. Software: Fender Studio One 8, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Fender Quantom HD8 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
A computer science colleague of mine used to put a book on the keyboard to see what the student's program did. My technique was different: I would grab someone from the hallway who was NOT a comp. sci. student, sit them down in front of the program, and watch what they did, see how deeply they got into trouble, and listen to what questions they had. Applying that here, take any musician (who should know what a repeat sign means) and ask them to modify it. What key do they press? What menu do they look in?
It would be easy to get ten or music students together in a room, all without knowledge of BIAB (mine say "Whats that?" when I mention BIAB) with a list of structured questions of the "do this" variety, and videotape what they did, with observers looking on and asking them questions, but not answering questions. The wages could simply be a copy of BIAB. Such feedback would be invaluable. IF it were listen too.
Same here no matter what I tried, including setting the key signature to Cm with no transposition and changing styles. My guess is that you have a corrupted file and must start all over again.
Are you using ASIO drivers? Have you run an anti-virus and anti-malware lately. Is anything running in the back ground? I ask as you seem to be having a lot of problems lately.
On very rare occasions I get a corrupted file. I frequently save my song files and label them songtitle 1, songtitle 2, etc. That way I have backups.
Dad, how will I know when I've become an adult.
When your day is ruined because they rearranged the grocery store.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Thank you, yet another corrupted file. The amount of times I have trashed preferences, reloaded biab, trashed files….I shall just bin it. It is just another demo of Biab flakiness. I have another file here which has decided it will never play a count in, whatever is set. Rewrite please! Z
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MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
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