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Originally Posted by AudioTrack
I certainly don't mean to derail the thread, but A.I. this, A.I. that, A.I. ready?
Wouldn't it be better if we could just think for ourselves? I don't really know where all of this A.I. dependency is leading, but long term I don't think it can be good.

I know what you mean. I watched this video the other day and made me wonder the same thing.
Google AI with Logic Pro


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Originally Posted by dcuny
Originally Posted by Bass Thumper
And when AI becomes included in these instruments the capabilities will surely skyrocket.
Why would you think that? 😕

Most AI is cloud based because there are zillions of elements that are processed.

I don't see how any of that would impact these keyboards.
Predicting exactly where any new technology will go is always a gamble. But here are a few thoughts that I see on the horizon regarding arranger keyboards.

AI could wade thru the zillions of available onboard styles and drum patterns to down-select to the top 2 or 3 that blend with what you’re working on.

AI could improve the realism of onboard voices by learning from real recordings. Some of these keyboards have horrid voices. Imagine telling your keyboard “Hey I don’t like the sound of that clarinet, can you improve it?”

AI could generate practice drills tailored to your weaknesses or help you improvise over chord changes. Think onboard personal tutor.

Based on a backing track on a thumb drive in its USB port that you are jamming along with, AI (in real-time) could alter the song by filling in for missing band members and allow you jam over a fresh rendition of the chord progression; perhaps in an entirely different style at a different tempo with different instruments. If you don't like the style it has chosen, push a button to guide it to what you want.

The list could go on and on if I had more time and imagination.

Place yourself back in the 1800’s and ask yourself this question.
“What applications could there be for this new-fangled thing called software?”


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Yeah, all that needs a demand.
People are already just generating whole songs online.
I think they jumped right over keyboards, if that's your thing.
Why would they back fill that at this point?

Personally I like doing my own stuff.
Use BiaB to get an idea across? Sure.
Eventually the fun for me is getting a group together that can play that, as a group with their own playing/interpretation..
AI doesn't need that? True, and I don't need AI to do it. <grin>

Sorry, but I see AI ruining art by simply reusing existing stuff forever.
It has an endless supply of variations, but original performance in the true sense, not so much.

Last edited by rharv; 10/14/25 06:36 PM.

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Originally Posted by Bass Thumper
AI could...
Again, all these are predicated on AI being in the cloud, because it's far too much to download. And if you could, why would you when the cloud exists?

We're talking about arranging keyboards here, which are stand-alone.

The two are mutually exclusive. I could easily see AI-powered solutions replacing arranging keyboards, but that's a whole 'nother thing.


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Yeah, you may be surprised to find out how little processing power a keyboard uses compared to what AI requires.

Two different worlds.
Who is going to buy a $59,000 keyboard?
They may start claiming a given keyboard uses AI, but that would be stretch.


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What WOULD be cool, was a keyboard that could use BiaB generation with a good MIDI soundset
Then you might have something!
Throw in Ultrpak/Audiophile/FLAC RT sound set and wow ..

Just a thought for Peter and team <grin>
That may blow the keyboard auto-accompaniment world up

Last edited by rharv; 10/15/25 06:58 PM.

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To paraphrase Lewis Caroll's Humpty Dumpty, "When I use the term AI, it means just what I choose it to mean...".

Everything now from tiny microprocessors through PCs to giant server farms all now have "AI". It's become a crazy and nebulous term.


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Originally Posted by rharv
That may blow the keyboard auto-accompaniment world up
Quite an idea, indeed.


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Originally Posted by dcuny
Originally Posted by Bass Thumper
And when AI becomes included in these instruments the capabilities will surely skyrocket.
Why would you think that? 😕

Most AI is cloud based because there are zillions of elements that are processed.

I don't see how any of that would impact these keyboards.
Once again, I’ll give you more examples; this time where AI is running locally on products shipping today.

Google has local AI vision and inference engines running on security cameras.
Apple Intelligence is doing similar on iPhone, iPad and Watch.
Sony has a local real-time AI running on a subject tracking camera.
Tesla is shipping on-vehicle AI compute software/FSD that is integrated with their Autopilot system.
Therefore, designing self-contained AI engines into arranger keyboards is quite possible and will be available commercially soon if not now.

I think you are cross-confusing huge general-purpose LLMs that are running on giant server farms (which is one specific implementation only) with other AI implementations, some of which are highly specific and have much smaller footprints. See above for examples. I have personally written AI/ANN algorithms that will easily fit on a small thumb drive.

Why would I think this? Quite simply for reasons of market share if you are a developer and for enhanced capability if you are a consumer.

AI and arranger (or other) keyboards are most definitely NOT mutually exclusive.
To be sure, there are some awfully smart people working awfully hard on this AI application.

I’ve said that AI will impact every domain from agriculture to zoology and everything in between and day-by-day I see this happening. If you research this subject you will find the same.

I have observed that there are 4 types of companies or individuals regarding technology adoption.
Type A: Those that actively develop and deploy cutting-edge technology: Sam Altman, OpenAI and others
Type B: Those that early-adopt new technology into their workflows and processes as needed
Type C: Those that are caught surprised (or deny) when new technology appears and then scramble to catch up if they are able
Type D: Those that refuse to adopt/use a given technology altogether: the Amish are an example

PS> Yamaha, a Type A company, clearly disagrees with you regarding the two being mutually exclusive. View this website on their YOO project.
Project YOO


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Originally Posted by Bass Thumper
I think you are cross-confusing huge general-purpose LLMs that are running on giant server farms (which is one specific implementation only) with other AI implementations, some of which are highly specific and have much smaller footprints. See above for examples. I have personally written AI/ANN algorithms that will easily fit on a small thumb drive.
NNs can be quite small - SynthV is a case in point, as are other NNs that resynthesize vocals and instruments.

So you're right - it's possible to do this and fit into a small device.

But with the ubiquity of cloud services, I'm having trouble understanding why a company would want to take that route. Call it a lack of vision, but given the option between locking users into a subscription model vs trying to sell a more limited model, I think the first option has a lot more appeal.

Even for the use case where a user wants a backing track, it would make more sense (to me) to have this performed in the cloud (via AI), and then for that rendered backing track be delivered in sections (intro/verse/ending/etc.) that could be switched to live during performance.

By way of analogy, think of BiaB RealTracks. An AI could generate new RTs dynamically, or it could generate them in the cloud and deliver them to you to use locally. The option to deliver them after building them in the cloud means that PG Music would have the cost of maintaining the infrastructure in the cloud, and you'd get the part you care about: the backing tracks.

Since the RTs or backing tracks are the final product, there's little compelling reason to have them generated locally - as long as it can be seamless.

So it's possible, but I suspect that's not the route it'll go.


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YOO is 7 year old project. Has it created an instrument yet? Seriously asking as I have not seen one.

They debuted that at a conference in 2018.

Last edited by rharv; 10/17/25 01:15 PM.

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Originally Posted by rharv
What WOULD be cool, was a keyboard that could use BiaB generation with a good MIDI soundset
Then you might have something!
Throw in Ultrpak/Audiophile/FLAC RT sound set and wow ..

Just a thought for Peter and team <grin>
That may blow the keyboard auto-accompaniment world up
I think this is essentially already done.
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That uses Biab Generation?
Or are you being disingenuous ..

Or what does this have to do with AI?
<confused>

That said it is impressive for what it does, though that video is pretty crappy sounding; I don't transfer that to the product

Last edited by rharv; 10/17/25 08:12 PM.

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Originally Posted by Bass Thumper
Originally Posted by rharv
What WOULD be cool, was a keyboard that could use BiaB generation with a good MIDI soundset
Then you might have something!
Throw in Ultrpak/Audiophile/FLAC RT sound set and wow ..

Just a thought for Peter and team <grin>
That may blow the keyboard auto-accompaniment world up
I think this is essentially already done.
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I think most good arranger keyboards and modules have done that for some years, haven't they? Korg, Yamaha and Ketron I'm pretty sure.

The Ketron Event uses samples a bit like RealTracks, though I think the others are still mostly(?) MIDI-type samples. BiaB can still sound better than any of them, I think.


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Originally Posted by Bass Thumper
Originally Posted by rharv
What WOULD be cool, was a keyboard that could use BiaB generation with a good MIDI soundset
Then you might have something!
Throw in Ultrpak/Audiophile/FLAC RT sound set and wow ..

Just a thought for Peter and team <grin>
That may blow the keyboard auto-accompaniment world up
I think this is essentially already done.
Korg PA5X

Holy crap! It's $5k. That's a bit much..
You could have 10 BiaBs for that.

Last edited by rharv; 10/18/25 06:37 AM.

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Originally Posted by dcuny
NNs can be quite small - SynthV is a case in point, as are other NNs that resynthesize vocals and instruments.

So you're right - it's possible to do this and fit into a small device.

But with the ubiquity of cloud services, I'm having trouble understanding why a company would want to take that route. Call it a lack of vision, but given the option between locking users into a subscription model vs trying to sell a more limited model, I think the first option has a lot more appeal.
I need to leave subscription/no-subscription business models to the guys with bow ties and business degrees.
My main point is that AI is showing up in products that are both stand-alone and connected to the web. And that in theory, either strategy could be embedded into arranger keyboards. For company xyz, and product abc, it's a business decision.

But I'm not seeking a keyboard that is necessarily AI-powered, only one that is hands-free/chord progression-powered and has a wide variety of styles and grooves to choose from. The good news is that there are a few on the market. So the search goes on to be followed by a down-select.


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I have stayed out of this conversation as I have little knowledge about chord sequencer keyboards but I hope someone can help me understand. I watched the video and it looked like it took a number of presses on the touch screen to get a chord sequence. I have DLed a MIDI song, brought it into BiaB so the chords are inserted into the chord window, picked a style, then pressed generate. I can also have a BiaB demo song put into the chord window. IMHO, and I may be wrong about this, both processes are easy to execute and have thousands of styles to pick from in the styles window. Note that I can use both RTs or MIDI styles. Granted PGM could have a better filtering system for picking a style but to me BiaB is the better route to take. YMMV

PS - Steve this is no knock against you or anyone else into chord sequencer keyboards. I'm just trying to understand. Noted that you will need a keyboard along with BiaB so that is another expense.


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Originally Posted by Bass Thumper
But I'm not seeking a keyboard that is necessarily AI-powered, only one that is hands-free/chord progression-powered and has a wide variety of styles and grooves to choose from. The good news is that there are a few on the market. So the search goes on to be followed by a down-select.
That sounds like you don't even need the keys, just the sequencer and sounds.

If you don't too much mind having a Laptop/PC with you, ...
Would BiaB and a good MIDI generator work for you? I'm thinking Ketron SD100 or a used Roland Sound Canvas or similar.
Or, would something like vArranger be suitable? It does play chord sequences.

If you don't want the laptop/PC, would a Raspberry Pi driving an SD1000 work?

My own hang-up with all of those is the mess of wall warts and cables they demand. Maybe that's also a killer for you.


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<< But I'm not seeking a keyboard that is necessarily AI-powered, only one that is hands-free/chord progression-powered and has a wide variety of styles and grooves to choose from. >>

It would be interesting to hear how you would be implementing your concept live. There was a good discussion back in November 2023 very similar to this one with some thoughtful suggestions about triggering BIAB audio snippets in live performances.

Some of the discussion was centered around the Ketron Event Arranger Keyboard with Musocity demonstrating a program he designed for BIAB to be triggered direct from ram. (This concept has since been implemented in BIAB)
Musocity: "... video example, these are the actual wma sections that Biab plays after it has decompressed them into RAM.
Reaper is playing all the wma sections of all different files direct from disk (RealTracks and Drum folders on Biab USB 3.0 drive), markers have been added to every beat so transitions will occur on the next beat rather than next measure, so as I input a chord it will go to that chord on the next beat seamlessly:"

It's possible to convert Musocity's concept onto Yamaha PSR Keyboards that doesn't require a computer when performing live.

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Originally Posted by Gordon Scott
I think most good arranger keyboards and modules have done that for some years, haven't they? Korg, Yamaha and Ketron I'm pretty sure.

The Ketron Event uses samples a bit like RealTracks, though I think the others are still mostly(?) MIDI-type samples. BiaB can still sound better than any of them, I think.
Hey Gordon, I hadn't heard of Keytron, thanks for putting it on my radar. From what I can see, this is another extremely powerful instrument. I wonder why this brand is not carried by GuitarCenter here in the States.

And although the multi-bass looks like a great feature, no way am I going to let this (or any) machine have all the fun smile
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Along with version 2026, we've released an incredible lineup of new content! There's 202 new RealTracks, brand-new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two new RealDrums Stems sets, XPro Styles PAK 10, Xtra Styles PAK 21, and much more!

Special Offers
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows and save up to 50% on most upgrade packages during our special offer—available until December 31, 2025. Visit our Band-in-a-Box® packages page to explore all available upgrade options.

2026 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK Add-ons
Our Free Bonus PAK and 49-PAK are loaded with amazing add-ons! The Free Bonus PAK is included with most Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows packages, but you can unlock even more—including 20 unreleased RealTracks—by upgrading to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49. Browse the full contents of each package and listen to demos here.

XPro and Xtra Styles PAKs Special Extended Until August 31st!

XPro & Xtra Styles PAKs Special Extended Until August 31st!

The XPro Styles PAKs and Xtra Styles PAKs special offers are now available until August 31st at 11:59pm PDT!

Ready to take your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 experience to the next level? Now’s the perfect time! Expand your style library with XPro and Xtra Styles PAKs—packed with a wide variety of genres to inspire your next musical creation.

What are XPro Styles and Xtra Styles PAKs?

XPro Styles PAKs are styles that work with any version (Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition) of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 (or higher). XPro Styles PAKS 1-9 includes 900 styles!

Xtra Styles PAKs are styles that work with the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 (or higher). With over 3,500 styles (and 35 MIDI styles) included in Xtra Styles PAKs 1-20, the possibilities are endless!

Get the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Listen to demos and order now! For Windows or for Mac.

Note: XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.

Get Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 19 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Listen to demos and order now! For Windows or for Mac.

Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 19 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.

Don’t miss this chance to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box setup—at a great price!

Mac 2025 Special Upgrade Offers Extended Until August 15th!

It's not too late to upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® and save! We've extended our special until August 15, 2025!

We've added many major new features to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®, including advanced AI tools like the amazing BB Stem Splitter and AI Lyrics Generator, as well as VST3 plugin support, and Equalize Temp. Plus, there’s a new one-stop MIDI Patches Picker with over 1,100 MIDI patches to choose from, all neatly categorized by GM numbers. The MultiPicker Library is enhanced with tabs for the SongPicker, MIDI Patch Picker, Chord Builder, AI Lyrics Generator, and Song Titles Browser, and the tabs are organized into logical groups. The Audiophile Edition is enhanced with FLAC files , which are 60% smaller than AIFF files while maintaining identical audio quality, and now ships on a fast 1TB SSD, and much more!

Check out all the new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® here:

Purchase your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac during our special to save up to 50% off your upgrade purchase and receive a FREE BONUS PAK of amazing new Add-ons. These include the 2025 RealCombos Booster PAK, Look Ma! More MIDI 13: Country & Americana, Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes, MIDI SuperTracks Set 44: Jazz Piano, Artist Performance Set 17: Songs with Vocals 7, Playable RealTracks Set 4, RealDrums Stems Set 7: Jazz with Mike Clark, and more!

Upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and add 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and 20 RealStyles, FLAC Files for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks, Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster, MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster, Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8, and RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe.
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs!

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