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Here's a song I started putting together last Friday. I'm pretty happy with the way it's turning out, but as with my last song (and apparently anything up-tempo) I'm having a rather hard time getting my vocals right on the beat.  I'm not sure whether it's a latency thing or just my inability to enuciate fast enough.  I tend to think it's me since repeated (many times) attempts have produced acceptable results.  I'll definately be working on the 1st verse and some chorus parts some more as well as maybe some harmony on certain lines in the verses & a high part in the chorus. I just wanted to get some feedback on where I am right now.  I'm finding this forum to be a great asset in this whole music creation process.  Thank you to all who participate.  All tracks are RT's. I was gonna put some guitar tracks down, but then I felt like I didn't really need to, and to be honest. Sometimes it's not real easy to compete with the RT's, especially at this tempo! (And of course there's my potential latency issue's) All feedback welcome, Greg http://www.mymusicstream.com/gregachord/song-8407749408844.html Oh yea... The effect's at the beginning and end are just for grin's.:D
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Hi Greg,
This song could be evaluated on several different levels, and at each level it gets a different score in my book.
level 1, the composition:
I REALLY like the composition, chords, theme, lyrics and energy of this song. The arranging of the real tracks is very good.. instruments flow in and out very realistically. I also appreciate the added sound effects. They add to the "live" feel of the song, which, as I've said before, is one of your key strengths (IMHO). You know how to make a song exciting as in a live performance.
level 2, the live performance:
yeah, the vocal synch is not always on cue.. and the reasons you offer are probably right. Maybe a bit too fast or too edgy... but in the context of a live performance, those things aren't deal killers. Enthusiastic use of vocal chords often changes the vocal parameters somewhat. So, as a live performance it works for me. I can imagine myself sitting in a lawn chair at Merlefest listening to this piece while tapping my foot and nodding approvingly.
level 3, the studio recording:
It is mixed well... on my speakers is was crystal clear, no mud, and the panning/balance of the instruments was value-adding. But as a studio recording, people would expect that you spent more time getting the vocals right. These days even humble home studios commonly have the technology to fix pitch, timing, etc and we are so spoiled by perpetual sonic perfection that when we hear something that sounds "natural", it raises a red flag.
Assuming latency is the culprit, you may want to try one or more of the following fixes:
1) if you aren't already using ASIO drivers, that might help the latency
2) if the song is just too fast, you could slow it down or..
3) punch in as needed until it's in synch throughout the song
4) consider purchasing melodyne. It has an algorithm for repositioning audio notes like midi, and it does a pretty good job of polishing a first take it into a keeper.
On the other hand, I'm not a fan of totally processed sound (especially bluegrass)
I like your live sound. If I were you, with your natural talents and tendencies, I would focus on making "LIVE" recordings and forget about trying to polish away the rough edges of the gem. That's totally your own creative judgment call, however. Only you can decide what persona you want to present with your music. But I really like your sound. Everything you've posted so far sounds good to me. Your songs are FUN to listen to, and not every musician knows how to consciously repeat that phenomenon.
Last edited by Pat Marr; 09/28/10 03:32 AM.
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Hey Pat, Thanks for taking the time to listen and for your (evaluated) comments. I appreciate all you had to say and find your comments to be very helpful. I have been using punch-in to help with my sync issues (with some success). I'm intrigued by "Melodyne", and I see where you can download a trial version of the VST plug-in. I'll be giving that a try. Hopefully later tonight. Thanks again, Greg
Last edited by Achordocaster; 09/28/10 05:15 PM.
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Hi Greg, this has a ton of potential. Great sound and groove.
I agree with Pat on everything he has stated so I will not be redundant.
I will add a couple of things. I’m assuming you are recording with a sequencer and not in BiaB. I would record each phrase separate and not try to sing the song in its entirety. Record a phrase, get it synced with the backing tracks them move to the next phrase. You may be doing this already and if so then just ignore it.
I believe you are trying to sing to many words in a short period of time. Hopefully you can accomplish this. If not you have but two choices; slow the song down as per Pat’s suggestion or cut out some of the words. Your choice.
Lastly whatever you do DO NOT change anything except the vocals. Everything else is absolutely perfect.
It takes courage for a man to admit his wife was wrong.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Mario, Thanks for the input, It's appreciated. I'm going to spend some time (as soon as I have some) working on phrases individually, may have to cut a word here or there (we'll see), since I don't really want to slow it down. I'm sure I can improve on what I've got, especially the first verse.  I downloaded the demo version of Melodyne to try that, but alas it only lets you do a 10sec section and that just won't get it. I don't know how your suppose to evaluate it's usefulness with only 10 sec to work with!  Thanks again, Greg I promise I WON'T change anything except vocals.
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Greg, there is a free pitch correction called GSnap I have no experience with it as I use the V-Vocal that comes with Sonar however this may work for you. Plus the price is right!
It takes courage for a man to admit his wife was wrong.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Hi Greg - don't forget that handy little doohickey in the audioedit window that help you align your vocal. Use in small phrases - highlight the "out of time" section, then press the ctrl key and the left mouse button at the same time, then slide the highlighted phrase as you need to put it on beat. Oh yeh, do this on a duplicate track. Try to sort it out with sliding. Or as Mario suggested - phrase at a time. If your vocal is coming in late for the whole song, then maybe it is a driver matter, but if it is just now and then, then it is a timing problem with you and your backing tracks.
Maybe for recording you need to boost the beat, or insert a percussion track to help you with your rhythm vocal cues.
Failing that, maybe trim the lyrics.
Good Luck - hope this helps. Ian
I use MME drivers
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Ian, Thank you so much! That's great advice. I wondered if that was possible in RB. I can't wait to give it a try (like right now). I'm using the Shure X2U USB adapter with a SM86 condenser mic, so I'm inclined to think it's me and not a driver/latency issue. Boosting the beat for recording the vocal track is also an excellent suggestion. Thanks Again. Update: I've been messing with the Audio Edit window on my verse vocal track for the last 1/2 hour... and WOW! This is exactly what I needed. I can move individual words, phrases, sections, etc. I only need to move them a little bit, so I think this is gonna work great for me! Nice job Ian! Greg
Last edited by Achordocaster; 10/01/10 10:29 PM.
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A real toe-tapper! Nice tune. I hear where the vocals are off a bit. You have to figure out if that's latency or not. You don't want to start working around it with editing. It's a solution for this fix, but you shouldn't have to do that if you're singing properly to begin with. It's tough to say whether it's latency or not. People who sing out of time generally don't really know they're doing it, which is why it may be hard for you to know for sure. I would know if I saw you sing it but obviously....! If you don't have a sense of timing when you sing, then editing will be your friend. If you know you're singing on the mark in the first place, then fix the latency. Don't accept it and edit after the fact, if you can help it. I guess the question begs- how are you recording vocal? What's the chain? Meaning gear you hook up to.
All in all- good tune!
Dan
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Well I just spent about an hour editing the vocals via the audio/edit window and I think it really helped. I didn't go nuts, I just moved the blatant words/phrases onto the beat. That's a very handy tool! I've updated the song page with the new one. Quote:
A real toe-tapper! Nice tune. I hear where the vocals are off a bit. You have to figure out if that's latency or not. You don't want to start working around it with editing. It's a solution for this fix, but you shouldn't have to do that if you're singing properly to begin with. It's tough to say whether it's latency or not. People who sing out of time generally don't really know they're doing it, which is why it may be hard for you to know for sure. I would know if I saw you sing it but obviously....! If you don't have a sense of timing when you sing, then editing will be your friend. If you know you're singing on the mark in the first place, then fix the latency. Don't accept it and edit after the fact, if you can help it. I guess the question begs- how are you recording vocal? What's the chain? Meaning gear you hook up to.
All in all- good tune!
Dan
Hey Dan,
Thanks for the compliment and your thoughts as well.
I really don't think it's latency, I'm using a shure condeser mic and the shure X2U USB adapter into a USB port for vocals & haven't really had any problems until this song. (well maybe a little on my last one too) I think it's me just not gettin the words out fast enough.
I spent 25+ years playing 4 & 5 nights a week in a band and we would record almost every night right off the mixer... I never noticed a problem with my "sense of timing when I sing" on all those live recordings, but... I am somewhat older & slower now and this song is pretty snappy at 140bpm! If I did it with the band I'm in now it would HAVE to be slowed down.
Hey, once again thanks for takin the time to listen, and check out the new one if you like.
Greg
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Quote:
Hi Greg - don't forget that handy little doohickey in the audioedit window that help you align your vocal. Use in small phrases - highlight the "out of time" section, then press the ctrl key and the left mouse button at the same time, then slide the highlighted phrase as you need to put it on beat.
Dang! I didn't know that was there! Yet another cool feature buried in the heap of other cool features!
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Well I decided to re-record the verses and add a few lines of harmony as well. There were a few pitch issues I couldn't live with, as well as the vocal timing problem, (despite the use of the audioedit window). I still had to move a couple of words very slightly, but nothing like the editing I did before! I believe I'll call this one finished. I know I could continue to knit-pick, but I'm learning there comes a time when you just have to call it good and move on! Otherwise I'd still be on my first project! I've updated the page with the (finished) version and hope ya' all will give it one more listen. I'll be posting another project real soon. Thanks everyone! Greg
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Quote:
I believe I'll call this one finished. I know I could continue to knit-pick, but I'm learning there comes a time when you just have to call it good and move on! Otherwise I'd still be on my first project!
Ok so guess I lied in the post above.
What happened is I decided to download "Reaper" about 10 days ago, and after about a 5 day learning curve and 20+ hrs of playing with it (read alot of the 400 page pdf manual) I decided to bring this song into it and work on it there.
I re-recorded the verse vocals and harmony's in Reaper... and Wow! What a difference. The timing problem I was having in RB completely disappeared.
I guess maybe I WAS having some latency issues in RB, especially at that tempo.
Anyway I'm really impressed with Reaper (especially since they let you use the entire program for a month and then it's only $40) and I think it's a great supplement to BIAB & RB.
So... If your so inclined give it one more listen with this new mix using Reaper.
Oh and I think it really is done now!
Greg
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