[quote=MarioD]So you’re invited to a birthday party and you're the only muscian invited. And as they bring out the cake, someone starts singing Happy Birthday. Nobody is carrying a pocket tuner with them and no one has any preconceived ideas on “the proper key”. But as soon as the first note is sung, the entire room is able to sing along quite nicely. And even if a high-pitched woman or child starts everyone off, the low-pitch males can easily adjust their singing down an octave or two quite naturally to blend with the crowd. I find it amazing that we are wired this way.
Not at the birthday parties that I've attended. People start in different keys, and proceed to get louder and louder, and even less in tune at the end. .......................................
David, that was not my quote. That was Bass Thumpers. My Happy Birthday experience was exactly like yours.
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And as they bring out the cake, someone starts singing Happy Birthday. Nobody is carrying a pocket tuner with them and no one has any preconceived ideas on “the proper key”. But as soon as the first note is sung, the entire room is able to sing along quite nicely.
Ha Ha. Well, you're half right. This bit works: "But as soon as the first note is sung..." But this bit Never Works:"..the entire room is able to sing along quite nicely" You need to extract the words: 'quite nicely' and consider replacing with 'cringeworthy'.
Never mind, as long as the party's good, what else matters?
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I have a singer in my Sunday group who thinks he can.
He asks if I changed the key every time he has trouble singing his part.
Hmmm, I wonder if Anthony Amusia has a pathology of some kind affecting his inner ear, subcortical structures or hippocampus. Perhaps a brain worm, injury or other cognitive decline? Absent any pathology, he should easily be able to sing along to simple familiar songs. Children can do this at very early ages.
“The latter years of childhood are characterized by a general singing competency for the majority. Relatively few children are reported as singing “out-of-tune” at the age of eleven years (Howard et al, 194; Welch, 1979;2002).”
In any event, I hope “Anthony” isn’t preventing you from grasping the underlying “Happy Birthday Concept”; that healthy humans are wired and capable of cooperatively singing with one another.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
Hmmm, I wonder if Anthony Amusia has a pathology of some kind affecting his inner ear, subcortical structures or hippocampus. Perhaps a brain worm, injury or other cognitive decline? Absent any pathology, he should easily be able to sing along to simple familiar songs. Children can do this at very early ages.
You misunderstand. He's quite capable of singing on key. And he can sing tenor parts as well as the melody.
But every now and then, I'll be on the piano playing a song written in Fm and think "Em is a much easier key to play this in.", and proceed to do just that without telling the choir. You've already made the case for relative pitch, and a half step isn't generally going to change much, especially for the tenors.
But this singer has caught on to my ploy. So if he's got trouble singing his part, his first thought is that the problem is that the key has changed, rather than the more probable we're all getting older and he's not listening closely enough.
Quote
In any event, I hope “Anthony” isn’t preventing you from grasping the underlying “Happy Birthday Concept”; that healthy humans are wired and capable of cooperatively singing with one another.
What's this "cooperatively singing" thing? I thought the goal was to sing louder, so everyone would have to sing in the right key (i.e.: the key I chose).
As a youngster in church, I quickly figured out that my Dad and my Uncle Rich (seated a few pews back) weren't just singing loudly because they were into the hymn.
But this singer has caught on to my ploy. So if he's got trouble singing his part, his first thought is that the problem is that the key has changed, rather than the more probable we're all getting older and he's not listening closely enough.
As a youngster in church, I quickly figured out that my Dad and my Uncle Rich (seated a few pews back) weren't just singing loudly because they were into the hymn.
No, each was trying to out-sing the other.
To them, singing was a competitive sport.
David, we seem to be talking past each other. I can’t add meaningful value by drawing conclusions or offering opinions about the individual people close to you. Even if I tried, such conclusions would only apply to them, not more broadly. That’s called anecdotal and subjective and not what science is interested in.
I, and Levitin's book are more interested in how science seeks to understand the generalized big picture. In this field, that means longitudinal studies, brain imaging, animal research, and cross-cultural observations. The book that we’re discussing here aims to explain how humans experience music and which areas of the brain are responsible for processing, interpreting, and enjoying it.
So while your uncle Rich and your dad may have a personal singing competition going on, I can’t see how that fact contributes to the scientific knowledge base about music at our species or brain level. Science isn’t interested in individuals unless they are so exceptional that they warrant specific investigation; think of the interest in dissecting Einstein’s brain, for example.
The paper I shared by Graham Welch illustrates this point: the initial phase of the study assessed 3,510 children across 77 schools. A sample of that size provides far more insight compared to two individuals in a singing rivalry or one person who has figured out your piano ploy.
Of course, exceptions exist, but exceptions don’t make general conclusions. The weight of the data does. And one conclusion that many have made is that humans, even young children, can blend and emulate in singing when a simple song (like Happy Birthday) is started in an unpredictable key. It suggests that music, and our ability to understand and produce it, is deeply rooted in the brain. As far as we know, crayfish can’t do this. 😊
And who knows? Could it be that we all come out of the womb with some innate understanding of music? If so, an A440 basis is where I’d put my money 😉
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
David, we seem to be talking past each other.... I can’t see how that fact contributes to the scientific knowledge base about music at our species or brain level.
I can't comment unless I add to the scientific knowledge base instead giving my typical smart alec remarks?
I can't comment unless I add to the scientific knowledge base instead giving my typical smart alec remarks?
FWIW I don't consider your remarks "smart alec" but there is plenty of one-sentence (or less) anecdotal, personal and hometown banter here already. I'm hoping that an intellectual discussion on our brains on music would be educationally stimulating, different and fun.
And it isn't so much about adding to the scientific knowledge base (although that would be great if you can) it's more about exploring the scientific and music base; discussing the ground that has already been plowed by very smart people. Adam Neely is a good example.
Clearly, Daniel Levitin is quite well-studied and can teach us much. Who amoungst us here could write such a book?
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
“. . . and music is often described as having two dimensions, one that accounts for tones going up in frequency (and sounding higher and higher) and another that accounts for the perceptual sense that we’ve come back home again each time we double a tone’s frequency.”
I can understand the “higher and higher” but the doubling of frequency (an octave) is quite interesting. I wonder how much this is biological and neural vs culturally learned.
And could there be a 3rd dimension, time, since all music progresses thru time as opposed to a painting which is essentially static and "frozen" in time.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
Yes However, doesn't that require that those biological and neural responses mean we inherently have a 'snapshot', if you will, of those overtones-over-time that allows us to respond? Comparable to a static painting, say .. or ROM
// My 'snapshot' library is probably much different than most, at least it appears to me that way
Last edited by rharv; 12/07/2501:55 PM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!
I can understand the “higher and higher” but the doubling of frequency (an octave) is quite interesting. I wonder how much this is biological and neural vs culturally learned
I imagine it's how we perceive/anticipate tension and resolution. It's quite likely innate as some aspect like that are common around the world in different musical cultures.
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A minor pentatonic is usually the first scale a guitarist learns. Also a pentatonic scale fits in two different key signatures. For instance an A minor pentatonic scale is also a C major pentatonic scale, i.e. same notes in both key signatures.
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Yes However, doesn't that require that those biological and neural responses mean we inherently have a 'snapshot', if you will, of those overtones-over-time that allows us to respond? Comparable to a static painting, say .. or ROM
We (even non-musicians) may very well have a "snapshot" or natural understanding of what an octave is even if we may be unable to articulate that understanding in words.
I agree with Levitin when he says "we’ve come back home again each time we double a tone’s frequency". But have we really fully "come back home"? We've doubled the frequency so we are no longer "home" in the frequency domain but I think we are "home" in some other domain that appears to be circular; think circle of 5ths.
Moving from A440 to A880 may sound equivalent from one perspective but those two notes are quite different from another perspective. Perhaps the brain is wired to collapse 2:1, 3:1, 4:1, etc. frequency ratios into a single category that we percieve as "similar". And maybe it does this because these integer ratios don't allow any dissonance from happening. Non integer ratios would introduce dissonance because the pressure pulses reaching the inner ear are out of sync.
Just a thought . . .
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
Yes However, doesn't that require that those biological and neural responses mean we inherently have a 'snapshot', if you will, of those overtones-over-time that allows us to respond? Comparable to a static painting, say .. or ROM
We (even non-musicians) may very well have a "snapshot" or natural understanding of what an octave is even if we may be unable to articulate that understanding in words. ... Just a thought . . .
I think it's much deeper than that, but no argument here.
Why do we think a guitar should be tuned a certain way? I mean, even if 436 is used versus 440, it is tuned to itself from there. What about a sitar? Why are the horns in a typical orchestra all universally accepted as opposed to other horns created in history? Why are all the conventional brass instruments in Bb and not the others? Most importantly, why on earth is there a 'C' trumpet ?
.. just having fun asking questions, as it makes one think sometimes
Last edited by rharv; 12/07/2508:47 PM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!
A minor pentatonic is usually the first scale a guitarist learns. Also a pentatonic scale fits in two different key signatures. For instance an A minor pentatonic scale is also a C major pentatonic scale, i.e. same notes in both key signatures.
This also, (I think) is much deeper than that. Pentatonic is handy/easy/fundamental on any instrument it can apply to, which is most.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!
I can understand the “higher and higher” but the doubling of frequency (an octave) is quite interesting. I wonder how much this is biological and neural vs culturally learned.
Hearing starts as a physical phenomena - sound/vibrations trigger pitch recognition via sympathetic vibrations.
A vibration at n times a frequency will activate the pitch receptors from frequency to n * frequency from 1..n, obviously in different proportions.
Yes, that is my understanding also. The human nature is to more easily adapt to similar harmonic frequencies. Doubling / halving of frequencies is the natural launching point.
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A minor pentatonic is usually the first scale a guitarist learns. Also a pentatonic scale fits in two different key signatures. For instance an A minor pentatonic scale is also a C major pentatonic scale, i.e. same notes in both key signatures.
This also, (I think) is much deeper than that. Pentatonic is handy/easy/fundamental on any instrument it can apply to, which is most.
Yes, I agree. I was just using a guitarist point of view. But after rereading it I should have been more specific. A guitarist whom reads music learns the major scale first. Those who do not read music learns the minor pentatonic scale first, at least in my experience.
Life is short so make sure you spend as much time as possible on the Internet arguing with strangers.
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Yeah, I think I learned of this video from you last year, thanks for sharing. Everytime I watch it I smile, it's as if the audience is an instrument and McFerrin is playing that instrument.
I wonder if similar results would be achieved in a class of kindergarteners, I'm thinking yes.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
There's a good mapping between the overtone series and how we perceive harmonic tension. I have no doubt that's tied to the mechanics of how we decode pitch.
If we take a frequency and divide it by ascending integers, we get the harmonic series:
f/1, f/2, f/3, f/4 ...
This yields the notes
C1, C2, G2, C3, E3, G3 ...
These map fairly well from least dissonant intervals to most dissonant intervals:
1, 5, 3, ...
We can add inversions (fourth, sixth) which gives a fairly complete scale:
1 3 4 5 6 8 ...
So in C major:
C E F G A C
It's not the same as the pentatonic scale, but more on that later. It also has some large gaps in it, between 1..3 and 6...8. There are various ways of filling in those gaps.
The other primary relation can be shown using the circle of fifths. For example, we can use the circle of fifths to derive the entire chromatic scale, ignoring the issue of the pythagorean comma:
C, G, D, A, E, B, F#/Gb, C#/Db, G#/Ab, D#/Eb, A#/Bb, F, C ...
We get the pitch set of any major scale by choosing one note to the left of the root, and five from the right. So the key of A major yields:
C, G, D, A, E, B, F#/Gb, C#/Db, G#/Ab, D#/Eb, A#/Bb, F
which rearranged gives:
A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#, A
Back to the pentatonic scale. Given a major scale, we can reduce it by removing the half-steps, which are pretty universally heard as dissonances (of course, context changes this). So given a major scale, there are two scale degrees that are within a half-step: the 3-4 and the 7-8:
C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C
To get the most harmonically pleasing scale, we remove the clashing notes with the highest dissonance. That means we keep the 1, 3 and 5 (they are harmonically strongest, per the circle of fifths). So with the 3-4 we remove the 4, and 7-8 we remove the 7. This yields a major pentatonic scale, called a "gapped" scale to recognize that notes have been removed from it, leaving spaces:
C, D, E, G, A
These two principles - the overtone series and circle of fifths - provide a strong basis for explaining chords and scales. The circle of fifths also gives insight into harmonic movement, especially V->I movement.
A minor pentatonic is usually the first scale a guitarist learns. Also a pentatonic scale fits in two different key signatures. For instance an A minor pentatonic scale is also a C major pentatonic scale, i.e. same notes in both key signatures.
I built this table awhile ago but never figured out how to actually use it in constructing my bass lines. Maybe I should investigate this.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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and consider replacing with 'cringeworthy'.
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