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[quote=MarioD]So you’re invited to a birthday party and you're the only muscian invited. And as they bring out the cake, someone starts singing Happy Birthday. Nobody is carrying a pocket tuner with them and no one has any preconceived ideas on “the proper key”. But as soon as the first note is sung, the entire room is able to sing along quite nicely. And even if a high-pitched woman or child starts everyone off, the low-pitch males can easily adjust their singing down an octave or two quite naturally to blend with the crowd. I find it amazing that we are wired this way. Not at the birthday parties that I've attended. People start in different keys, and proceed to get louder and louder, and even less in tune at the end.  ....................................... David, that was not my quote. That was Bass Thumpers. My Happy Birthday experience was exactly like yours.
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And as they bring out the cake, someone starts singing Happy Birthday. Nobody is carrying a pocket tuner with them and no one has any preconceived ideas on “the proper key”. But as soon as the first note is sung, the entire room is able to sing along quite nicely. Ha Ha. Well, you're half right. This bit works: "But as soon as the first note is sung..." But this bit Never Works:"..the entire room is able to sing along quite nicely" You need to extract the words: 'quite nicely'   and consider replacing with 'cringeworthy'. Never mind, as long as the party's good, what else matters?
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I have a singer in my Sunday group who thinks he can. He asks if I changed the key every time he has trouble singing his part.  Hmmm, I wonder if Anthony Amusia has a pathology of some kind affecting his inner ear, subcortical structures or hippocampus. Perhaps a brain worm, injury or other cognitive decline? Absent any pathology, he should easily be able to sing along to simple familiar songs. Children can do this at very early ages. “The latter years of childhood are characterized by a general singing competency for the majority. Relatively few children are reported as singing “out-of-tune” at the age of eleven years (Howard et al, 194; Welch, 1979;2002).” Vocal Pitch Development in Children In any event, I hope “Anthony” isn’t preventing you from grasping the underlying “Happy Birthday Concept”; that healthy humans are wired and capable of cooperatively singing with one another.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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Hmmm, I wonder if Anthony Amusia has a pathology of some kind affecting his inner ear, subcortical structures or hippocampus. Perhaps a brain worm, injury or other cognitive decline? Absent any pathology, he should easily be able to sing along to simple familiar songs. Children can do this at very early ages. You misunderstand. He's quite capable of singing on key. And he can sing tenor parts as well as the melody. But every now and then, I'll be on the piano playing a song written in Fm and think "Em is a much easier key to play this in.", and proceed to do just that without telling the choir. You've already made the case for relative pitch, and a half step isn't generally going to change much, especially for the tenors. But this singer has caught on to my ploy. So if he's got trouble singing his part, his first thought is that the problem is that the key has changed, rather than the more probable we're all getting older and he's not listening closely enough. In any event, I hope “Anthony” isn’t preventing you from grasping the underlying “Happy Birthday Concept”; that healthy humans are wired and capable of cooperatively singing with one another. What's this "cooperatively singing" thing? I thought the goal was to sing louder, so everyone would have to sing in the right key ( i.e.: the key I chose). As a youngster in church, I quickly figured out that my Dad and my Uncle Rich (seated a few pews back) weren't just singing loudly because they were into the hymn. No, each was trying to out-sing the other. To them, singing was a competitive sport.
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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But this singer has caught on to my ploy. So if he's got trouble singing his part, his first thought is that the problem is that the key has changed, rather than the more probable we're all getting older and he's not listening closely enough. As a youngster in church, I quickly figured out that my Dad and my Uncle Rich (seated a few pews back) weren't just singing loudly because they were into the hymn. No, each was trying to out-sing the other. To them, singing was a competitive sport. David, we seem to be talking past each other. I can’t add meaningful value by drawing conclusions or offering opinions about the individual people close to you. Even if I tried, such conclusions would only apply to them, not more broadly. That’s called anecdotal and subjective and not what science is interested in. I, and Levitin's book are more interested in how science seeks to understand the generalized big picture. In this field, that means longitudinal studies, brain imaging, animal research, and cross-cultural observations. The book that we’re discussing here aims to explain how humans experience music and which areas of the brain are responsible for processing, interpreting, and enjoying it. So while your uncle Rich and your dad may have a personal singing competition going on, I can’t see how that fact contributes to the scientific knowledge base about music at our species or brain level. Science isn’t interested in individuals unless they are so exceptional that they warrant specific investigation; think of the interest in dissecting Einstein’s brain, for example. The paper I shared by Graham Welch illustrates this point: the initial phase of the study assessed 3,510 children across 77 schools. A sample of that size provides far more insight compared to two individuals in a singing rivalry or one person who has figured out your piano ploy. Of course, exceptions exist, but exceptions don’t make general conclusions. The weight of the data does. And one conclusion that many have made is that humans, even young children, can blend and emulate in singing when a simple song (like Happy Birthday) is started in an unpredictable key. It suggests that music, and our ability to understand and produce it, is deeply rooted in the brain. As far as we know, crayfish can’t do this. 😊 And who knows? Could it be that we all come out of the womb with some innate understanding of music? If so, an A440 basis is where I’d put my money 😉
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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David, we seem to be talking past each other.... I can’t see how that fact contributes to the scientific knowledge base about music at our species or brain level. I can't comment unless I add to the scientific knowledge base instead giving my typical smart alec remarks? I guess I'll be showing myself out, then.
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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I can't comment unless I add to the scientific knowledge base instead giving my typical smart alec remarks? FWIW I don't consider your remarks "smart alec" but there is plenty of one-sentence (or less) anecdotal, personal and hometown banter here already. I'm hoping that an intellectual discussion on our brains on music would be educationally stimulating, different and fun. And it isn't so much about adding to the scientific knowledge base (although that would be great if you can) it's more about exploring the scientific and music base; discussing the ground that has already been plowed by very smart people. Adam Neely is a good example. Clearly, Daniel Levitin is quite well-studied and can teach us much. Who amoungst us here could write such a book?
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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Another fascinating quote on page 29.
“. . . and music is often described as having two dimensions, one that accounts for tones going up in frequency (and sounding higher and higher) and another that accounts for the perceptual sense that we’ve come back home again each time we double a tone’s frequency.”
I can understand the “higher and higher” but the doubling of frequency (an octave) is quite interesting. I wonder how much this is biological and neural vs culturally learned.
And could there be a 3rd dimension, time, since all music progresses thru time as opposed to a painting which is essentially static and "frozen" in time.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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Yes However, doesn't that require that those biological and neural responses mean we inherently have a 'snapshot', if you will, of those overtones-over-time that allows us to respond? Comparable to a static painting, say .. or ROM  // My 'snapshot' library is probably much different than most, at least it appears to me that way
Last edited by rharv; Yesterday at 12:55 PM.
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I can understand the “higher and higher” but the doubling of frequency (an octave) is quite interesting. I wonder how much this is biological and neural vs culturally learned I imagine it's how we perceive/anticipate tension and resolution. It's quite likely innate as some aspect like that are common around the world in different musical cultures. This may be interesting. I know I've posted it before, so my apologies if you've seen it, but what it shows about our natural understanding may be profound: Bobby McFerrin Demonstrates the Power of the Pentatonic Scale
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A minor pentatonic is usually the first scale a guitarist learns. Also a pentatonic scale fits in two different key signatures. For instance an A minor pentatonic scale is also a C major pentatonic scale, i.e. same notes in both key signatures.
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Yes
However, doesn't that require that those biological and neural responses mean we inherently have a 'snapshot', if you will, of those overtones-over-time that allows us to respond? Comparable to a static painting, say .. or ROM We (even non-musicians) may very well have a "snapshot" or natural understanding of what an octave is even if we may be unable to articulate that understanding in words. I agree with Levitin when he says "we’ve come back home again each time we double a tone’s frequency". But have we really fully "come back home"? We've doubled the frequency so we are no longer "home" in the frequency domain but I think we are "home" in some other domain that appears to be circular; think circle of 5ths. Moving from A440 to A880 may sound equivalent from one perspective but those two notes are quite different from another perspective. Perhaps the brain is wired to collapse 2:1, 3:1, 4:1, etc. frequency ratios into a single category that we percieve as "similar". And maybe it does this because these integer ratios don't allow any dissonance from happening. Non integer ratios would introduce dissonance because the pressure pulses reaching the inner ear are out of sync. Just a thought . . .
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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Yes
However, doesn't that require that those biological and neural responses mean we inherently have a 'snapshot', if you will, of those overtones-over-time that allows us to respond? Comparable to a static painting, say .. or ROM We (even non-musicians) may very well have a "snapshot" or natural understanding of what an octave is even if we may be unable to articulate that understanding in words. ... Just a thought . . . I think it's much deeper than that, but no argument here. Why do we think a guitar should be tuned a certain way? I mean, even if 436 is used versus 440, it is tuned to itself from there. What about a sitar? Why are the horns in a typical orchestra all universally accepted as opposed to other horns created in history? Why are all the conventional brass instruments in Bb and not the others? Most importantly, why on earth is there a 'C' trumpet ? .. just having fun asking questions, as it makes one think sometimes
Last edited by rharv; Yesterday at 07:47 PM.
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A minor pentatonic is usually the first scale a guitarist learns. Also a pentatonic scale fits in two different key signatures. For instance an A minor pentatonic scale is also a C major pentatonic scale, i.e. same notes in both key signatures. This also, (I think) is much deeper than that. Pentatonic is handy/easy/fundamental on any instrument it can apply to, which is most.
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I can understand the “higher and higher” but the doubling of frequency (an octave) is quite interesting. I wonder how much this is biological and neural vs culturally learned. Hearing starts as a physical phenomena - sound/vibrations trigger pitch recognition via sympathetic vibrations. A vibration at n times a frequency will activate the pitch receptors from frequency to n * frequency from 1.. n, obviously in different proportions.
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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Yes, that is my understanding also. The human nature is to more easily adapt to similar harmonic frequencies. Doubling / halving of frequencies is the natural launching point.
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We've just released XPro Styles PAK 10 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 28 RealTracks and RealDrums!
Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.
Here’s just a small sampling of what you can look forward to in XPro Styles PAK 10: Soft indie folk worship songs, bumpin’ country boogies, gospel praise breaks, hard rockin’ pop, funky disco grooves, smooth Latin jazz pop, bossa nova fusion, western swing, alternative hip-hop, cool country funk, and much more!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
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Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
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XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Introducing Xtra Styles PAK 21 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest Xtra Styles PAK installment—the all new Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher)!
Rejoice, one and all, for Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box® is here! We’re serving up 200 brand spankin’ new styles to delight your musical taste buds! The first three courses are the classics you’ve come to know and love, including offerings from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, but, not to be outdone, this year’s fourth course is bro country! A wide ranging genre, you can find everything from hip-hop, uptempo outlaw country, hard hitting rock, funk, and even electronica, all with that familiar bro country flair. The dinner bell has been rung, pickup up Xtra Styles PAK 21 today!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Energetic folk rock, raucous train beats, fast country boogies, acid jazz grooves, laid-back funky jams, a bevy of breezy jazz waltzes, calm electro funk, indie synth pop, industrial synth metal, and more bro country than could possibly fit in the back of a pickup truck!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
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Note: XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Get Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 19 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Listen to demos and order now! For Windows or for Mac.
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 19 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
Don’t miss this chance to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box setup—at a great price!
Mac 2025 Special Upgrade Offers Extended Until August 15th!
It's not too late to upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® and save! We've extended our special until August 15, 2025!
We've added many major new features to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®, including advanced AI tools like the amazing BB Stem Splitter and AI Lyrics Generator, as well as VST3 plugin support, and Equalize Temp. Plus, there’s a new one-stop MIDI Patches Picker with over 1,100 MIDI patches to choose from, all neatly categorized by GM numbers. The MultiPicker Library is enhanced with tabs for the SongPicker, MIDI Patch Picker, Chord Builder, AI Lyrics Generator, and Song Titles Browser, and the tabs are organized into logical groups. The Audiophile Edition is enhanced with FLAC files , which are 60% smaller than AIFF files while maintaining identical audio quality, and now ships on a fast 1TB SSD, and much more!
Check out all the new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® here:
Purchase your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac during our special to save up to 50% off your upgrade purchase and receive a FREE BONUS PAK of amazing new Add-ons. These include the 2025 RealCombos Booster PAK, Look Ma! More MIDI 13: Country & Americana, Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes, MIDI SuperTracks Set 44: Jazz Piano, Artist Performance Set 17: Songs with Vocals 7, Playable RealTracks Set 4, RealDrums Stems Set 7: Jazz with Mike Clark, and more!
Upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and add 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and 20 RealStyles, FLAC Files for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks, Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster, MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster, Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8, and RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe.
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs!
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