… What if each BiaB style had a user-selectable “Edge Score”? ...
I'm sure a slider for “Busier to Simpler” would likewise be welcomed.
On the StylePicker, there is, in the "Other" filters, an option for genre "Intensity" may help with that.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2026 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
I totally disagree. I don't think anyone or any company can universally define edge in music.
I'm not talking about PGMusic universally defining edge in music, I'm talking about PGMusic locally defining edge for the purpose of designing an adjustable Edge Score so that each style can be altered by the user along a dimension called "edge".
shlind first used this term within the context of BiaB "It is like there is a level of "Edge" that is missing but I can't describe it." And so, I too am using the term within the same BiaB context; not universally. Of course PGMusic cannot define or dictate a worldwide definition of musical edge.
I maintain that who should define "edge" from a BiaB perspective is slam dunk easy . . . PGMusic.
If I can define edge (see my table above), PGMusic certainly can; and for the purposes of BiaB, their definition would be expected to be superior to mine.
A "Busier to Simpler" style adjustment would also aid in style customization but to some degree that already exists. If you want more "busy" just add more instruments. "Edge" is different in that it involves song structure at a more fundamental level.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
OK, what you are calling edge I would call style or groove in "that was a smooth groove/style". IMHO your chart is universal in that "that (blank) song was very aggressive" where blank could be jazz, country, metal, rock, etc. YMMV
Dad, how will I know when I've become an adult.
When your day is ruined because they rearranged the grocery store.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
OK, what you are calling edge I would call style or groove in "that was a smooth groove/style". IMHO your chart is universal in that "that (blank) song was very aggressive" where blank could be jazz, country, metal, rock, etc. YMMV
The chart I shared is just my stab at trying to define "Edge" in a musical and actionable way such that if PGMusic so chooses they would have a starting point to implement an Edge Adjustment to their styles. I was thinking an Edge knob and Matt suggested a slider; same concept. As stated earlier, PGMusic would ultimately define what edge is within the context of BiaB style customization.
The point is that "edge" is a song attribute that is on a spectrum; it's not Boolean. Per my definition it ranges from 0 to 10. I don't necessarily call my edge definition "universal" but if that's how you interpret that chart, no problem, even though the intent was to have it apply only to a BiaB improvement.
That said, I'd be very interested in seeing your, and others charts that define "edge".
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
The chart I shared is just my stab at trying to define "Edge" in a musical and actionable way such that if PGMusic so chooses they would have a starting point to implement an Edge Adjustment to their styles. I was thinking an Edge knob and Matt suggested a slider; same concept. As stated earlier, PGMusic would ultimately define what edge is within the context of BiaB style customization.
The point is that "edge" is a song attribute that is on a spectrum; it's not Boolean. Per my definition it ranges from 0 to 10. I don't necessarily call my edge definition "universal" but if that's how you interpret that chart, no problem, even though the intent was to have it apply only to a BiaB improvement.
That said, I'd be very interested in seeing your, and others charts that define "edge".
I agree that "edge" is a spectrum and definitely not Boolean. Yes, I do take your chart as universal. From my experience I can not define "edge" in music. Is "edge" in jazz the same as "edge" in country? Or ambient? Or rock? ETC. I think not. Thus in my mind PGM would have to categorize "edge" in each and every genre. Plus "edge" can be a personal call. I would much prefer that PGM use it resources improving the search functions, make all tracks have identical functions, maybe add generic chord progressions like IIm-V7-C, and things like that than trying to define "edge". BUT that is only my opinion. I know that is different than yours but that is OK.
Dad, how will I know when I've become an adult.
When your day is ruined because they rearranged the grocery store.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
I agree that "edge" is a spectrum and definitely not Boolean. Yes, I do take your chart as universal. From my experience I can not define "edge" in music. Is "edge" in jazz the same as "edge" in country? Or ambient? Or rock? ETC. I think not.
I hear it when you say you cannot define "edge", message recieved. Clearly I can and I did.
But with some effort I'd guess you too can define it. Gather a pad of paper, a pencil and an eraser and sit down at your table and just think about what musical edge means to you. If you feel there are different definitions for different genres, then go for it; produce your different definitions.
You even have a head start from reading my list where a 0 "is baby-butt-smooth" and a 10 is "rip your face off ragged".
And I take no offence whatsoever if you consider my table "universal". Although my intent was to give PGMusic ideas, the fact that you consider it universal is actually a compliment
In my mind the intent here is to help PGMusic give us useful style custumization features. Thanks to shlind, this important style attribute has been brought to our attention.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
Maybe I missed this in the thread, but there's already a StylePicker option to sort by genre "intensity" score of 0-100, where 0 = calm and 100 = heavy metal. Go to the "Other" pull down menu. Don't use it myself but there are other related discussions on this forum.
I'll go back to sleep now...
Last edited by DC Ron; 12/14/2506:46 AM.
DC Ron BiaB Audiophile Presonus Studio One ASUS I9-12900K DAW, 32 GB RAM Presonus Faderport 16 Too many guitars (is that a thing?)
I have been doing some thinking about this and I believe I have found MY problem. First yes I can define "edge" in a song. I also believe that definition varies with each individual and each song. That is what I have been trying to say. Part of my problem starts with your chart. I totally agree with your Edge Score and your Descriptor. It is your Instrument and Performance Traits I have a problem with. IMO they are based only on your perspective while mine and others may be different. For instance a jazz song with a growling sax could fit #6-10 and not have distorted feedback-laden guitar, power chords, relentless crashing cymbals, etc.
If you would have left that part out I would have agreed 100%. Like I said I do agree with the first two columns of your chart and you did a great job on those two. YMMV
Dad, how will I know when I've become an adult.
When your day is ruined because they rearranged the grocery store.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Maybe I missed this in the thread, but there's already a StylePicker option to sort by genre "intensity" score of 0-100, where 0 = calm and 100 = heavy metal. Go to the "Other" pull down menu. Don't use it myself but there are other related discussions on this forum.
This is all well and good except we're not talking about sorting genres.
Rather, were talking about how an Edge knob, slider or some other interface element would tweek the level of edge in a specific style.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
Maybe I missed this in the thread, but there's already a StylePicker option to sort by genre "intensity" score of 0-100, where 0 = calm and 100 = heavy metal. Go to the "Other" pull down menu. Don't use it myself but there are other related discussions on this forum.
This is all well and good except we're not talking about sorting genres.
Rather, were talking about how an Edge knob, slider or some other interface element would tweek the level of edge in a specific style.
Got it. I only intended to convey that the concept of "Edge" may have already been defined by PGMusic as "intensity" and could be observed in the StylePicker. There is also a discussion somewhere in the forum on how PGMusic defined "intensity", which was part of this post as well.
Signing off again...
DC Ron BiaB Audiophile Presonus Studio One ASUS I9-12900K DAW, 32 GB RAM Presonus Faderport 16 Too many guitars (is that a thing?)
I have been doing some thinking about this and I believe I have found MY problem. First yes I can define "edge" in a song. I also believe that definition varies with each individual and each song. That is what I have been trying to say. Part of my problem starts with your chart. I totally agree with your Edge Score and your Descriptor. It is your Instrument and Performance Traits I have a problem with. IMO they are based only on your perspective while mine and others may be different. For instance a jazz song with a growling sax could fit #6-10 and not have distorted feedback-laden guitar, power chords, relentless crashing cymbals, etc.
If you would have left that part out I would have agreed 100%. Like I said I do agree with the first two columns of your chart and you did a great job on those two. YMMV
Ahhh, I now get what you've been trying to say and I agree. No doubt, because music is such a personal thing, one person's definition of edge may not fully align with someone else's. Of course, my table is my table, meaning it tries to capture my view on edge. If you have a different view of what "edge" means, great!
The point of the table is to "move the ball down the field"; to hopefully end up with a stronger music creation software tool. A tool that your nursing home muscians would adopt. I'm sure PGMusic can figure out how to label such a user-adjustable element so that it would have maximum applicability across its user base.
The real challenge, requiring real brains, is how do you create a software subroutine that can implement my table (or something like my table) so that you can increase the edge of a given style, level by level without destroying the underlying feeling and groove of the style you're operating on. This requires a deep understanding of musical arrangement, software coding and "edge". But I do believe it's possible and would be profitable.
I wonder if there are Suno or other 100% AI music tool users that can comment if their tools can accomplish this. I know that traditional programming and AI are apples and oranges but if an AI tool can do this, that might be inspirational to the traditional programmers.
And never underestimate the old-school power of a pad of paper and a pencil; whiteboards are also useful
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
Maybe I missed this in the thread, but there's already a StylePicker option to sort by genre "intensity" score of 0-100, where 0 = calm and 100 = heavy metal. Go to the "Other" pull down menu. Don't use it myself but there are other related discussions on this forum.
This is all well and good except we're not talking about sorting genres.
Rather, were talking about how an Edge knob, slider or some other interface element would tweek the level of edge in a specific style.
That isn't sorting genres, it's sorting the genre intensity. Lower values more relaxed, higher values more intense. I believe the value relates to the 'intensity' interpretation within a genre, so an intense folk tune would score higher that a heavy metal ballad.
At least that's as I understand it. I find PGM's explanations a bit vague on this, but I do think it may be worth trying for what's wanted.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2026 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
"A. We've introduced a new variable for this – called "Genre Score". That describes a style by a simple number from 1 to 100. This "genre score" works as follows: "quiet, classical, acoustic, jazz, folk" would have low genre scores (1 to 30) "loud, aggressive, heavy rock" have high genre scores (80-100), and light-medium pop would have mid-range genre scores. So, if you're looking for a quiet "living room" type style, use the StylePicker filter to only show styles with a genre score less than 40 – that might show jazz, classical, folk or other quiet-acoustic styles."
From this, I'd interpret that a quiet folk song might be 1, and a loud one would be 30. So a loud folk song would never be more "intense" than a heavy rock song, or even a medium pop song, for that matter. Haven't actually looked myself. Just remember reading SOMETHING and THINK it must have been this quoted post.
DC Ron BiaB Audiophile Presonus Studio One ASUS I9-12900K DAW, 32 GB RAM Presonus Faderport 16 Too many guitars (is that a thing?)
From this, I'd interpret that a quiet folk song might be 1, and a loud one would be 30. So a loud folk song would never be more "intense" than a heavy rock song, or even a medium pop song, for that matter. Haven't actually looked myself. Just remember reading SOMETHING and THINK it must have been this quoted post.
Thanks Ron, I searched this in BiaB and found it. It's called "Intensity". But this is not what we are talking about here. First, the concept of "Intensity" may not be equivalent to the concept of "Edge". But more importantly is that it appears that you can only filter (or sort) the styles on Intensity. If this is not true, then show us how to change the Intensity from 15 to 70 for the Slip Jig from Cork with Piano style?
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
I've never used "intensity", only intended to note that it MAY be related to "edge" and that it already exists in BiaB.
That being said, it does not appear based on Andrew's description, that an intensity value can ever exceed the range for that genre. That is, ALL folks songs are between 1 and 30, with 30 being the max, and there can never be a style with an intensity of 15 (folk+) going to 70 (pop+) since that crosses genre ranges.
I could be completely wrong, just trying to be helpful.
Last edited by DC Ron; 12/16/2506:38 AM.
DC Ron BiaB Audiophile Presonus Studio One ASUS I9-12900K DAW, 32 GB RAM Presonus Faderport 16 Too many guitars (is that a thing?)
Going back to the complexity I think PG needs to look at the help they provide as part of the program. There are tons of videos and articles on the web site but there isn't a really good video series of how to build up a song using the main features. I find it to be a lot like Cubase in its complexity due to the number of features. I find sometimes just the thought of trying to remember everything and spending time looking up features really is a barrier to making music. At least with Cubase I can purchase any number of video tutorials to take you through all of the features. I think Henry Clarks approach is the closest thing out there. Maybe I am just getting old and do not have the energy or stamina I used to, however I think my attention span is still longer than most of the young people today getting into music.
...Maybe I am just getting old and do not have the energy or stamina I used to, however I think my attention span is still longer than most of the young people today getting into music.
Ha! Funny and almost certainly true.
The question being asked is, "Why did you spend so much time making music with BiaB when you could just have Suno (or your AI of choice) do it SO MUCH FASTER?"
That those without the skill, time and/or attention span to learn and engage in actually MAKING music can just have AI do it (with often excellent results, I might add) is no doubt intoxicating. I get it.
I agree that BiaB needs to level the complexity of BiaB against the cutting edge music-making tools that are so commonly (and cheaply) available...
DC Ron BiaB Audiophile Presonus Studio One ASUS I9-12900K DAW, 32 GB RAM Presonus Faderport 16 Too many guitars (is that a thing?)
Going back to the complexity I think PG needs to look at the help they provide as part of the program. There are tons of videos and articles on the web site but there isn't a really good video series of how to build up a song using the main features.
Agree. Personally I've found Henry Clarke's YouTube channel more helpful in that aspect. They'll most or all be the pre-2026 GUI of course. They don't suit everyone,but do suit many.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2026 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
Henry continues to deliver some amazing material. He is an accomplished musician and producer, and in the background he is a great ambassador to PGM's products.
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
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