BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
Apparently I've been doing it wrong all these years. I'd invite a girl to the show instead of hoping to find one in the crowd .. <sigh> By the time we finished playing I just wanted to go home and get some sleep.
I feel sorry for you man . . . heartfelt condolences. Didn't you consider strong coffee if you could't stay awake?
I never had a problem, had girlfriends all thru high school. Not because I was in a band (I took up music late in life) but because I was of a few guys that wasn’t bashful on the dance floor. These lovely and delicate creatures, full of ribbons, curls, perfume and soft were literally intoxicating and overwhelmed any bashfulness I may have had.
I should have sued the Campbell Soup company for stealing my motto: M’m, M’m, Good!
Page 246. Miller suggests that under the conditions that would have existed throughout most of our evolutionary history in which music and dance were completely intertwined, musicianship/danceship would have been a sign of sexual fitness on two fronts. First, anyone who could sing and dance was advertising to potential mates his stamina and overall good health, physical and mental. Second, anyone who had become expert or accomplished in music and dance was advertising that he had enough food and sturdy enough shelter that he could afford to waste valuable time on developing a purely unnecessary skill.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
I hope you were being funny and intentionally jumped my point/joke. I didn't go to shows hoping I'd get lucky. I had already secured that before entering.
/much as BassThumper and I kid each other I do consider him a friend //I do not give out my email address without consideration
Last edited by rharv; 01/01/2607:01 AM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!
The reason I started playing guitar was because I saw other guitarist get the girls! The irony is that the one I married I did not meet at a gig.
I was totally surprised the first time. I knew the girls went for singers, my older sister was crazy for Elvis Presley, but I didn't know they liked musicians, too.
On the road in college towns, before DJs took that business, I met and romanced a lot of young girls. It was fun.
I married one, and sooner or later it wasn't fun anymore. It was as much my fault, as it was hers. I knew what I wanted in a relationship, but I didn't know what I didn't want. She had both, and I wasn't what she thought I'd become, either. We're still friendly.
After the divorce, I was back 'in circulation' but I wasn't interested in getting married. Then I met this goddess who was in another band. We were each other's groupies for a while, both our bands broke up within a couple of weeks of each other. We ended up in the same, new 5-piece band. It turned into a 6 then a 4 and went through personnel problems resulting in us being out of work 3 months in one year.
That was in 1985, and the girl, who is a world-class singer and also plays guitar and synth, decided to become a duo. The gigs weren't as glamorous, but the money per person was better, and we both had strong work ethics. I could make backing tracks on a 4 track, Teac, reel-to-reel, tape machine and mix them to cassettes. The only time we've been out of work since, was during the COVID lockdown.
I eventually married that girl, and we're living happily ever after.
Although I met Mrs. Notes at a gig, she wasn't there as a fan, but as a peer.
HaHa, that image is pretty funny. And Tom Jones may say “That’s right!, Ditch the guitar, I did.”
But back to the book. He recounts a story where he had dinner with Joni Mitchell where Joni told him she would work with top-shelf bass players where each one would ask for the chord sheet so they could ensure that they’d hit the root notes to provide a solid harmonic foundation. [A sentiment I totally get as a bass player].
But let’s back up a bit. According Levitin, Joni never took guitar or other lessons and had no training in music theory. She used a lot of alternate tunings of her own choosing that she could talk for hours about. These tunings and her unique compositional style resulted in avant-garde music that spanned folk, rock and jazz. She would throw together notes in such a way that the chords couldn’t easily be labeled. She simply could not tell those bass players the root.
“Joni’s genius was she creates chords that are ambiguous, chords that could have two or more different roots.”
But then Jaco Pastorious showed up and he didn’t ask for the root notes, he would “float along” thru the song and Joni loved it. He was the only bass player that could understand where Joni’s head was coming from.
“The brilliance of Jaco, Joni said, is that he instinctively knew to wander around the possibility space, reinforcing the different chord interpretations with equal emphasis, sublimely holding the ambiguity in a delicate, suspended balance.”
Now Jaco had other personality traits that made it hard to work with, including causing mayhem backstage, but on the subject of ambiguous chords, he and Joni were on the same page. So Joni put up with his antics.
Personally, Jaco, is not a “bass hero” of mine and there are only a few Joni Mitchell songs I can honestly say I like. At least at this point in time, I’m firmly in the camp of “give me unambiguous chords”. 😊 Nonetheless, I admire them both. Even though I don't find ambiguous music pleasing, I do admire those with a certain genius that can transcend music theory.
There’s much more to this and other interesting stories, I suggest buy the book to understand it all.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
Many years ago, I worked with a bass player who was one of Jaco's early teachers. He said that Jaco learned so quickly that he soon ran out of things to teach him.
I hope you were being funny and intentionally jumped my point/joke.
I saw no joke at all. You shared that you were apparently "doing it wrong all these years". And "just wanted to go home and get some sleep" You even included a <sigh> indicating, resignation, frustration and defeat. So I provided my condolences as a friend and a caffine suggestion.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
Many years ago, I worked with a bass player who was one of Jaco's early teachers. He said that Jaco learned so quickly that he soon ran out of things to teach him.
I had a guitar student like that. He was a sponge as a student as he absorbed every thing I threw at him. Although he was mainly a rocker I had him playing country and jazz in a very short time. Once a year our county had a rock concert consisting of the best musicians in our high schools. They were costly high school seniors and juniors. He auditioned and as a freshman and played lead guitar for one song in that band; they alternated musicians for each song. He also played rhythm for a song. He was the only freshman ever to play in that band.
I'm in a fitness protection program. I'm been hiding from exercise.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Many years ago, I worked with a bass player who was one of Jaco's early teachers. He said that Jaco learned so quickly that he soon ran out of things to teach him.
I don’t know much about Jaco except from what Levitin is saying about him and that he was quite talented and left an imprint and influence on the bass guitar.
But I wonder if anyone has experience with these “ambiguous chords”. If so some simple examples that an amateur bass player could understand would be useful. And if they could be restricted to 2 or 3 note chords then we’d be able to easily play them on our keyboards and guitars to explore how they sound.
I’m aware of Cmaj, Cm, C7, Cdim, etc., I understand these have C as the root. But I haven’t dealt with the kinds of chords it’s been said that Joni used in her music.
Any Joni fans out there that can identify such chords in her songs?
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
Many years ago, I worked with a bass player who was one of Jaco's early teachers. He said that Jaco learned so quickly that he soon ran out of things to teach him.
I don’t know much about Jaco except from what Levitin is saying about him and that he was quite talented and left an imprint and influence on the bass guitar.
But I wonder if anyone has experience with these “ambiguous chords”. If so some simple examples that an amateur bass player could understand would be useful. And if they could be restricted to 2 or 3 note chords then we’d be able to easily play them on our keyboards and guitars to explore how they sound.
I’m aware of Cmaj, Cm, C7, Cdim, etc., I understand these have C as the root. But I haven’t dealt with the kinds of chords it’s been said that Joni used in her music.
Any Joni fans out there that can identify such chords in her songs?
Personally I think Jaco made them ambiguous by his note choices. In Mario's example, Jaco would not be playing the root of C - Bb - Gm . His note choices were themselves melodic and weaved thru the chords many times.
Including sometimes maybe a 9th or 6th instead of the triad. Example - C chord by a guitarist with bass playing an A suddenly makes that C chord ambiguous. Is it C6, Am7, C/A .. kinda depends on what happens next and previous (IMHO)
Oh, and another trick would be to thumb the root softly while adding a harmonic (or harmonically related note) to cause the chord to have a different sound (become ambiguous to what it was)
Here is Jaco playing with chords, the chords are not that complex and it's a slow song (I have the notation of this and a couple other WP albums) Just him, sax, keyboards and drums.
.. or just listen to The Chicken .. you'll get the idea. The root was there but the chords can go anywhere.
Last edited by rharv; 01/04/2611:41 AM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!
If you pick a Joni song and then on the Internet search for the song's chords you may find said chords.
Yeah, I'm aware of the UltimateGuitar site, it's a great site for chord sheets. But I see no way to see which chords are ambiguous as per the above discussion.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
If you pick a Joni song and then on the Internet search for the song's chords you may find said chords.
Yeah, I'm aware of the UltimateGuitar site, it's a great site for chord sheets. But I see no way to see which chords are ambiguous as per the above discussion.
OK I picked the wrong song but I was just trying to show you how to get chords. However I now know that you already knew the process.
But to know what chords are ambiguous or not one must know some music theory. As rharv posted "Example - C chord by a guitarist with bass playing an A suddenly makes that C chord ambiguous. Is it C6, Am7, C/A .. kinda depends on what happens next and previous (IMHO)"
We used to do that as I would be playing a C chord while the other guitarist would be playing an Am chord.
I'm in a fitness protection program. I'm been hiding from exercise.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Personally I think Jaco made them ambiguous by his note choices. In Mario's example, Jaco would not be playing the root of C - Bb - Gm . His note choices were themselves melodic and weaved thru the chords many times.
Including sometimes maybe a 9th or 6th instead of the triad. Example - C chord by a guitarist with bass playing an A suddenly makes that C chord ambiguous. Is it C6, Am7, C/A .. kinda depends on what happens next and previous (IMHO)
I think we're talking past each other. Let me back up. Levitin introduced me to the concept of "ambiguous chords" that Joni would play on her guitar. "Ambiguous" in that there may be 2 or more roots that could fit nicely with them. It's these ambiguous chords that I'm a) trying to find if anyone here knows anything about and b) whether yes or no, trying to learn something about them. So far no one seems to be able to directly engage on this subject which tells me this is an obscure subject; though I appreciate the side-topics as they are interesting too.
By definition, C - Bb - Gm are not ambiguous chords. As I understand it, they are well-defined chords with no ambiguity associated with them at all. If Jaco or other bassist can play notes other that C in the bar that contains the C chord is not surprising; I do it all the time. Quite frequently, there is ample room within a bar that contains a given chord to do many things on the bass including passing notes, the 5th, the 3rd, ghost notes, chromatic notes, slides and sometimes nothing. For it to "do justice" to a song, I need to play the root at some point to provide the grounding that I feel is needed. When I do stray from the root, I try to at least to return to it. And, to my knowledge, I've never played a song on the bass containing ambiguous chords. As we saw with Mario's example, when you go to GuitarCenter you find non-ambiguous chords. But we're not talking about non-ambiguous chords like C major, Bb or Gm.
Your example of a "C chord by a guitarist with bass playing an A suddenly makes that C chord ambiguous. Is it C6, Am7, C/A .." has 2 problems. First, the guitarist is playing a non-ambiguous C chord; Levitin is talking about ambiguous chords, not non-ambiguous ones. Second, you are talking about the composite chord formed by the guitarist and the bass player while Levitin (and I) are interested in the ambiguous chord the guitarist is playing.
To be sure what you bring up is interesting but doesn't help with my understanding of ambiguous chords played on a guitar or piano. The other disconnect is that you feel that "Jaco made them ambiguous by his note choices." Which could very well may be true but Levitin is saying the opposite, that Joni played the ambiguous chords to begin with and Jaco chose how to interpret them and played appropriately. Do you see this difference?
For me what would be ideal is to have an "understandable" (not free form jazz) Joni Mitchell song on YouTube with the corresponding notation showing the ambiguous chord that she is playing. Then I could attempt overlaying various bass notes on top of that ambiguous chord to observe the outcome.
And maybe this will help. I understand that chord ambiguity can happen at 2 very different levels; at the song/phrase level, and at the bar/chord level. I'm interested in the bar/chord level. And I'm thinking if the guitarist omits the root note of a traditional (non-ambiguous) chord then what emerges is an ambiguous chord. But I may be wrong on that.
Also note that I'm a self-taught newbie at music trying to learn what I can.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
I tried the best I could to explain it. The notes on guitar do not define the chord .. they may set a structure, but as a bass player you must know what the root does to a chord. Play a C chord on piano with right hand 3 fingers. It's a defined C chord. Now add a bass note like A with the left hand, what is that chord now? Your one hand is still playing a C chord (like a guitarist plays chords), but that chord is ambiguous without the root defining it
It's called music 'Theory' for a reason. <grin> It helps us communicate ideas & concepts with some understanding, but it's not written in stone, and sometimes it's hard to explain or grasp.
Again, I think in the example what Jaco did with the chords (interpreted) made the chords themselves ambiguous.
Last edited by rharv; Yesterday at12:15 PM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!
Your example of a "C chord by a guitarist with bass playing an A suddenly makes that C chord ambiguous. Is it C6, Am7, C/A .." has 2 problems. First, the guitarist is playing a non-ambiguous C chord; Levitin is talking about ambiguous chords, not non-ambiguous ones. Second, you are talking about the composite chord formed by the guitarist and the bass player while Levitin (and I) are interested in the ambiguous chord the guitarist is playing. ................................ Also note that I'm a self-taught newbie at music trying to learn what I can.
Steve, I believe there is a major problem in your thinking. When considering what a chord is one MUST account for every note on EVERY instrument. Thus the above example you must consider the notes on the guitar AND the note(s) on the bass. If there are more instruments then one must include all of their notes for a chord name. In the chord analyzer I included in my other message do the following and see what the possible chord names are: C-E-G B-E-G A-E-G
I'm in a fitness protection program. I'm been hiding from exercise.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Steve, I believe there is a major problem in your thinking. When considering what a chord is one MUST account for every note on EVERY instrument. Thus the above example you must consider the notes on the guitar AND the note(s) on the bass. If there are more instruments then one must include all of their notes for a chord name. In the chord analyzer I included in my other message do the following and see what the possible chord names are: C-E-G B-E-G A-E-G
Aren't these chords ambiguous since the root isn't specified? Depending on the root, the name of the chord changes.
Maybe I do have a problem with my thinking, so I asked a chat bot for an example where the guitarist plays an ambiguous chord and the bass player could add 3 different notes to form different chords between the guitarist and bassist. This is what I got:
Guitarist plays E-G (an ambiguous chord, what is the root?)
If Bassist plays C it results in Cmaj If Bassist plays D it results in Dsus2/4 If Bassist plays F it results in Fmaj9sus2
Please verify this, chat bots make errors too.
If there is no error here, this is exactly what I’ve been asking for but in a Joni Mitchell song. In this made up example, Joni would play an ambiguous E – G chord and Jaco would play a C, D or F. The final (composite) chord depends on what Jaco decided to play.
Remember the Levitin quote? “Joni’s genius was she creates chords that are ambiguous, chords that could have two or more different roots.”
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
Even if Joni played the full C chord triad (C-E-G), the bass can make that voicing into many many chords. What comes before and after it helps define it as much as anything
as a weird side note, my dad gave Joni's husband guitar lessons
Last edited by rharv; Yesterday at03:54 PM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!
I was in a rush when typing the last message and I made a major typo. Those chords should have read: 1-C-E-G 2-B-C-E-G 3-A-C-E-G
Sorry for any confusion I may have caused.
Yes, you are staring to get it. If you study the picture in my previous post you will notice that the fingerings shown are on a guitar. IF there is only a guitar then any chord is an ambiguous chord because there is no bass. Attached is a picture of a GMaj7 as a guitarist could play it. The other chords listed is what the chord would be called if a bassist would play any note of the chord outside of the tonic. It can get very confusing when the bassist play any other note outside of the chord. Also attached is a guitarist playing a C chord in the 1 first inversion, i.e. E-G-C. The chord finder assumes the lowest note on the guitar is the bass note, Emb6. That is not the name of the chord if a bass player is playing any other chord note, i.e bass plays a C then the chord is called a C major, i.e. a C chord.
Last edited by MarioD; Yesterday at04:18 PM.
I'm in a fitness protection program. I'm been hiding from exercise.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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