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Now yer starting to get it.  Yes I am starting to get it. But let's be clear, not because of any human on this thread, but because of a lifeless bot that could understand ambiguous chords. The question is are you getting it? Do you understand what an ambiguous chord is? If so, can you give an example different from what the bot provided? You were stuck on the dead-end example of C - Bb - Gm. By definition, C - Bb - Gm are not ambiguous chords.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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It is not important for every instrument that can play a chord, to play every note in the chord. In fact, if that happened, a lot of songs would be ruined. To cite and earlier reference and to give the simplest example I can, think about this: On the sheet music score, the pianist, or guitarist is playing C E G. We all should agree it's C Major. But on the same score, the bassist is playing an A. Now it's an Am7 It can get much more involved than that, but this illustrates it. It's not all black and white (except on the keyboard of the piano). 
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I was in a rush when typing the last message and I made a major typo. Those chords should have read:
1-C-E-G
2-B-C-E-G
3-A-C-E-G
Sorry for any confusion I may have caused.
Yes, you are staring to get it. If you study the picture in my previous post you will notice that the fingerings shown are on a guitar. IF there is only a guitar then any chord is an ambiguous chord because there is no bass. Attached is a picture of a GMaj7 as a guitarist could play it. The other chords listed is what the chord would be called if a bassist would play any note of the chord outside of the tonic. It can get very confusing when the bassist play any other note outside of the chord. Also attached is a guitarist playing a C chord in the 1 first inversion, i.e. E-G-C. The chord finder assumes the lowest note on the guitar is the bass note, Emb6. That is not the name of the chord if a bass player is playing any other chord note, i.e bass plays a C then the chord is called a C major, i.e. a C chord. Mario, no need to apologize for confusion, I appreciate your efforts in explaining this from your perspective. This is the 1st time I’m being exposed to the idea that any chord played on guitar (and presumably piano) is in fact ambiguous without a bass player playing a note. You say: “ IF there is only a guitar then any chord is an ambiguous chord because there is no bass.” Are you sure about this? If so, can you provide a reference for this? I understand that guitarists can play ambiguous or unambiguous chords. C-E-G would be a Cmajor unambiguous chord even if no bass player is present. And here is my understanding of the tonic. In music, the tonic is the first note scale degree (1) of the diatonic scale (the first note of a scale) and the tonal center or final resolution tone that is commonly used in the final cadence in tonal (musical key-based) classical music, popular music, and traditional music.Finally, it's not entirely clear on how to interpret your images. Can you clarify by showing your example(s) in this format? Guitarist Plays: X – Y – Z, (or X – Y) notes (an ambiguous chord) If bassist plays U note, then the chord is tbd1 If bassist plays V note, then the chord is tbd2 If bassist plays W note, then the chord is tbd3
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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You say: “IF there is only a guitar then any chord is an ambiguous chord because there is no bass.”
Are you sure about this? If so, can you provide a reference for this? I understand that guitarists can play ambiguous or unambiguous chords. C-E-G would be a Cmajor unambiguous chord even if no bass player is present. FWIW I think it's the presence of a bass note, played by whomever, that anchors the chord. AFAICS and major or minor triad is probably unambiguous. Just about anything else has the potential, at least, to be ambiguous unless that bass note is present. We have on keyboards, and I presume also on most or all chording instruments, what we call rootless voicings, which rely on someone else, normally the bass player, to supply the anchor for the chords, however it's also not that unusual to play those rootless voicings solo. The effect is of both some ambiguity and some lack of stability, which helps to keep the music evolving. Whether or not that's what you mean here by ambiguity I'm not sure, but it may be an area to explore.
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Are you sure about this? If so, can you provide a reference for this? I understand that guitarists can play ambiguous or unambiguous chords. C-E-G would be a Cmajor unambiguous chord even if no bass player is present. How do you know it's not Em(add#5) (?) Or for that matter an inversion of D11, whether minor or major? What key is the song? What was the previous and next chord? Those two questions can be important when determining how to refer to the chord.. I'm talking strictly from a theory point of view, not everyday use of a C chord (or G Bb D, or whatever it was), C just seems to be the prevalent choice. What key the example is in doesn't matter. Here's an example: Song is in D Guitar player says the fourth chord before it starts again is a C major In My head I'm thinking "OK" but I'm also thinking "is it really an Am7 leading back to D?" I mean both could work, and maybe in this particular song it works better if you use C the first time thru and then Am7 the second time right before the chorus. Point is, it's all just theory but it helps
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FWIW I think it's the presence of a bass note, played by whomever, that anchors the chord.
Just about anything else has the potential, at least, to be ambiguous unless that bass note is present.
We have on keyboards, and I presume also on most or all chording instruments, what we call rootless voicings, which rely on someone else, normally the bass player, to supply the anchor for the chords, however it's also not that unusual to play those rootless voicings solo. The effect is of both some ambiguity and some lack of stability, which helps to keep the music evolving. I had little idea on how important the bass is until this thread. I think I'm slowly understanding this, but I think more discussion is needed to really clarify this. What if in your studio there is no song and no key, you just play C-E-G (with pitch increasing from left to right) as a chord on your piano. Is that an ambiguous chord? And no one else has used the term "rootless voicing", I think that brings some clarity.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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Aren't these chords ambiguous since the root isn't specified? Depending on the root, the name of the chord changes. Ambiguity comes from various places. Part of disambiguating something is determining what sort of thing it is. When we hear a chord with no context, we generally listen for stable intervals to determine the root of the chord, as the root is generally how we determine function. With a C-E-G, the most stable intervals are C-G (perfect fifth) and C-E (major third). An inversion of those notes G-E-C gives less stable intervals, but we'll often infer a chord anyway. If we can "find" an arrangement that gives a more stable explanation, we'll hear it as an inverted stable chord. The lowest note interacts with the higher notes, creating tensions via waves interacting. And some chords are unstable by nature, like the Dim7 chord. That's a stack of minor thirds (with a diminished fifth and dom7) so there's no stable interval to be found. Each one of the notes has equal claim to being the root, but the lowest note usually wins. Jazzers often like to think of a diminished chords as a 7th chord missing the root, because we like to "understand" things using stable intervals, even if they aren't there at all.
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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Dave, I think that was one your best posts.
Nicely said.
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I had little idea on how important the bass is until this thread. Combination of username and comment made me smile <grin>
Last edited by rharv; Yesterday at 04:39 AM.
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Steve, you have gotten some good information in this thread. IMHO the most important was what is the key signature and what is the chord progression. Why? Because sometimes the bass note, regardless what instrument plays it (bass guitar, tuba, piano, etc) determines the chord's name. Sometimes the same bass note does not determine the chord's name; go back to the C6, Am7, C/A , posts. What names the chord is usually the combination of the key signature and what comes prior to and after the chord regardless of the bass note. This has been mentioned before. For an examples Google/Bing "Ambiguous chords in music" and you will get answers to your questions. Here is one example: https://www.beyondmusictheory.org/harmonic-ambiguity/I give you credit for throwing your yourself into this deep music theory topic. Now I say this in all due respect Steve but what is missing is the music theory foundation. Getting it piecemeal like this helps but IMHO getting a music theory book will build the foundation much faster. YMMV
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Or for that matter an inversion of D11, whether minor or major?
What key is the song?
What was the previous and next chord?
Those two questions can be important when determining how to refer to the chord. Rharv, you bring up some good questions that go to the complexity of this subject; context seems to be very important. So what if we establish 3 different contexts so they can be specifically addressed separately? Context 1(most simple): Piano player in his studio by himself and only plays individual chords with his right hand. No songs are played. Context 2 (a little complex): Piano player still plays chords with only his right hand but a bass player is with him. Again, no songs are played. Context 3 (complex): Piano player, bass player and drummer come together and play a complete song in a single unambiguous key. The goal here is to understand Levitin’s 2 statements. “Joni’s genius was she creates chords that are ambiguous, chords that could have two or more different roots.”
“The brilliance of Jaco, Joni said, is that he instinctively knew to wander around the possibility space, reinforcing the different chord interpretations with equal emphasis, sublimely holding the ambiguity in a delicate, suspended balance.”Regarding the simplest case, Context 1, if the piano player plays C – E – G (increasing pitch as you move from C to E to G, my question is this an ambiguous or unambiguous chord? My answer: It’s an unambiguous Cmaj chord. Reasoning: The pianist is providing a root, a 3rd and a 5th, therefore it’s a fully voiced, unambiguous chord. Am I wrong?
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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TL;DR Determining the root (bass) note of the chord is critical to understand what the harmonic function of the chord is.
One other point: music can be thought of a series of resolutions.
That means that a chord isn't so much defined by what comes before, but what comes after.
Most harmony can be understood as one of these, and sometimes functioning as more than one:
I-IV-V: These chords can freely move between each other. Example: C-F, C->G, F->C, F->G, G->F, G->C in the key of C
Circle of Fifths: The 5 of the chord is the root of the prior chord. Example: G -> C, since C = C-E-G, and the prior chord was a G of some sort.
Stepwise or Chromatic Root Movement: The root of the chord moves up/down to the next letter or stepwise note. Example: A -> Bm
Change one Note The note that follows only differs from the prior by one note, often a stepwise change. Example: C (C-E-G) -> Am (A-C-E)
By "sometimes functioning as more than one", you can see the movement G -> C as a I-IV-V movement and/or V -> I circle of fifths motion.
For example, I was looking at the song Kaerou by Fujii Kaze, and it's got some really nice progressions. Here's one bit:
Amaj7 Dmaj7 C#m7 Fdim F#m7 Em Edim Dmaj7
My reading of the progression is:
Amaj7 We're in the key of A for the moment
Dmaj7 simple I -> IV (I-IV-V movement)
C#m7 stepwide downward root motion
Fo what's this dissonant sound? have to see where it goes.
F#m7 oh, the Fdim interrupted the C#m7 -> F#m7 circle of fifths (V -> I) movement
Em continuing to move stepwise down, setting up an expected ii ->V circle of fifths progression
Eo another wtf chord, I need to find out where it's going to figure it out
Dmaj7 cadence back to I, so I treat the Edim as a tension chord, functioning as a sort of funky V7
Back to my point: for much of this lazy analysis, I could just look a the bass note and ignore everything else, and pretty much get the same understanding.
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Or for that matter an inversion of D11, whether minor or major?
What key is the song?
What was the previous and next chord?
Those two questions can be important when determining how to refer to the chord. Rharv, you bring up some good questions that go to the complexity of this subject; context seems to be very important. So what if we establish 3 different contexts so they can be specifically addressed separately? Context 1(most simple): Piano player in his studio by himself and only plays individual chords with his right hand. No songs are played. Context 2 (a little complex): Piano player still plays chords with only his right hand but a bass player is with him. Again, no songs are played. Context 3 (complex): Piano player, bass player and drummer come together and play a complete song in a single unambiguous key. The goal here is to understand Levitin’s 2 statements. “Joni’s genius was she creates chords that are ambiguous, chords that could have two or more different roots.”
“The brilliance of Jaco, Joni said, is that he instinctively knew to wander around the possibility space, reinforcing the different chord interpretations with equal emphasis, sublimely holding the ambiguity in a delicate, suspended balance.”Regarding the simplest case, Context 1, if the piano player plays C – E – G (increasing pitch as you move from C to E to G, my question is this an ambiguous or unambiguous chord? My answer: It’s an unambiguous Cmaj chord. Reasoning: The pianist is providing a root, a 3rd and a 5th, therefore it’s a fully voiced, unambiguous chord. Am I wrong? No, you are not wrong, in that if the piano player intended to play a C chord (and did) it is unambiguous in the simplest sense. But again, three (or even 4) notes does not necessarily define a chord, as a few people have pointed out (theoretically). Key of song, surrounding chords.
Last edited by rharv; Yesterday at 02:50 PM.
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Ambiguity comes from various places. Part of disambiguating something is determining what sort of thing it is. When we hear a chord with no context, we generally listen for stable intervals to determine the root of the chord, as the root is generally how we determine function. With a C-E-G, the most stable intervals are C-G (perfect fifth) and C-E (major third). An inversion of those notes G-E-C gives less stable intervals, but we'll often infer a chord anyway. If we can "find" an arrangement that gives a more stable explanation, we'll hear it as an inverted stable chord. The lowest note interacts with the higher notes, creating tensions via waves interacting. And some chords are unstable by nature, like the Dim7 chord. That's a stack of minor thirds (with a diminished fifth and dom7) so there's no stable interval to be found. Each one of the notes has equal claim to being the root, but the lowest note usually wins. Jazzers often like to think of a diminished chords as a 7th chord missing the root, because we like to "understand" things using stable intervals, even if they aren't there at all. David, I agree with rharv. In my opinion, this is one of your better posts and one of the better posts so far in this thread on the subject of chord ambiguity. Hopefully, the "what sort of thing it is" will be addresses as we work thru Contexts 1, 2 and 3. I'm going to try to capture in a document the "gem statements" that get made so I don't lose them in the sometimes cacophony of this thread. One gem for me is: "When we hear a chord with no context, we generally listen for stable intervals to determine the root of the chord, as the root is generally how we determine function."Keep these gems coming
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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I had little idea on how important the bass is until this thread.
I think I'm slowly understanding this, but I think more discussion is needed to really clarify this.
What if in your studio there is no song and no key, you just play C-E-G (with pitch increasing from left to right) as a chord on your piano. Is that an ambiguous chord?
And no one else has used the term "rootless voicing", I think that brings some clarity. Bass is fundamental, if you'll forgive the pun. It's also the thing to which the various modes (syn church modes) are anchored. It's quite possible that rootless voicings are used more by keyboard players than anyone else. Obviously it's a chording thing, but maybe it's less often used by, e.g., guitarists. I'd not really thought about it. A quick web search shows them for guitar. Two things that keys frequently do that may be less used by other instrumentalists are the rootless voicings and voice leading. The former means no root notes and the latter results in at least some chords in inversions, i.e., not having the root note at the bottom of the chord ... we'll usually expect the bass player to supply that, whilst the bass player usually prefers that we stay out of their tonal area. That's a fair deal  Rootless voicing by themselves, almost(?) by definition don't really resolve anywhere ... the chord progression is never quite 'done'. They need the bass note for them to be able to resolve.
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Jazzers often like to think of a diminished chords as a 7th chord missing the root, because we like to "understand" things using stable intervals, even if they aren't there at all. The other thing about diminished triads and fully diminished 7 chords, of course, is that there are effectively only three of them for the whole octave because they invert seamlessly. Again a separate bass note gives the context.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
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Video: New User Interface (GUI)
Join Tobin as he takes you on a tour of the new user interface in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®! This modern GUI redesign offers a sleek new look with updated toolbars, refreshed windows, and a smoother workflow. The brand-new side toolbar puts track selection, the MultiPicker Library, and other essential tools right at your fingertips. Plus, our upgraded Multi-View lets you layer multiple windows without overlap, giving you a highly flexible workspace. Many windows—including Tracks, Piano Roll, and more—have been redesigned for improved usability and a cleaner, more intuitive interface, and more!
Watch the video.
You can see all the 2026 videos on our forum!
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