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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 138
Apprentice
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OP
Apprentice
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 138 |
Dear All,
Two questions:
When I enter a hold or shot for a chord (using RT's only), the chord is played in midi - which of course sounds very odd indeed in an all-RTs song.
I think I have all the shots and holds files up to date: I have 91 folders in BB/RT/Library/Holds.
(The particular RTs I'm using are: #470 Piano Bossa EV140 and #464 Bass, Acoustic Bossa)
What am I doing wrong?
Second question - on pushes: Does "Push by 1/8" (In C7 'Chord Options') work for RTs (specifically for the jazz bass and piano RTs) ?
And does the "Push by 1/8" work for RDs ?
Many Thanks for your kind help as ever - Best - Andy
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,793
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,793 |
Quote:
Dear All,
When I enter a hold or shot for a chord (using RT's only), the chord is played in midi - which of course sounds very odd indeed in an all-RTs song.
I think I have all the shots and holds files up to date: I have 91 folders in BB/RT/Library/Holds.
(The particular RTs I'm using are: #470 Piano Bossa EV140 and #464 Bass, Acoustic Bossa)
Andy, what style are you using? I can try to duplicate on my end to see/hear the problem.
BIAB – 2026, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 138
Apprentice
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OP
Apprentice
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 138 |
Hi Dan,
I ignore styles - because I only ever use RTs and RDs.
I don't think styles make any difference when you're only using RT's do they ?
I just checked and it's zzjazz.sty
Many Thanks for your help. Best - Andy
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,793
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,793 |
Quote:
Hi Dan,
I ignore styles - because I only ever use RTs and RDs.
I don't think styles make any difference when you're only using RT's do they ?
I just checked and it's zzjazz.sty
Many Thanks for your help. Best - Andy
I believe you are correct, but I knew you had to have one selected so I wanted to reproduce as best as possible your setup on this tune. Also when you said you heard "midi" then that has to be coming from somewhere, presumably the style.
BIAB – 2026, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,793
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I see no problem here.
When I enter a hold (Dm...d) for all RT except the midi drums in the zzjazz style or a shot for a chord (Em..d), the chord is played just as expected, there is no midi other than the drums.
(The particular RTs I'm using are: #470 Piano Bossa EV140 and #464 Bass, Acoustic Bossa)
Have you done a reset to factory settings.
If you PM me I can send you my BIAB file or you can send me yours.
BIAB – 2026, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 493
Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 493 |
Don't ignore the styles for anything. BIAB uses them all, that is why there are styles specific to RTs. Try some others. I think the one you are using is the default style as shipped from PG. That won't work for everything. I think you are really limiting your music if you only use that style.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 20,360
Veteran
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Veteran
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Quote:
I ignore styles - because I only ever use RTs and RDs. I don't think styles make any difference when you're only using RT's do they ?
That's an interesting thought, Andy, and makes sense to me given that RTs and RD are someone's actual playing and, as a consequence, this playing is fixed and will not change from style to style.
Quote:
When I enter a hold or shot for a chord (using RT's only), the chord is played in midi - which of course sounds very odd indeed in an all-RTs song.
I agree. This is odd and does not sound like proper behavior at all. Do you have the latest update for your version of BIAB? I recall that a recent update dealt with some holds and shots.
I notice that RT #470 (Bossa Piano) has a chart with it. From what I understand, these charts are midi-based and it could be that it's this that's creating the problem. When I have discovered odd behavior such as what you've found, I play the BIAB file and use Sonar to record the music as it's playing. I then trim the recorded audio to contain only the offending section. Using email, I then send the trimmed audio file along with the BIAB MGU/SGU file (and a brief explanation) to support at PGMusic for their help and interpretation.
Regards,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 138
Apprentice
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OP
Apprentice
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 138 |
Thanks to all for their replies. I've done a bit more testing. Results as follows:
1) Changing styles seems to make no difference at all (using all RTs/RDs)
2) The holds problem is with piano RTs. Different jazz bass RTs play nice holds on the root note.
3) I'm not certain the piano holds are midi - but they are louder, aggressive and don't 'sound the same' as non-hold RT chords. For example
- Jazz piano RTs for Cmaj7, C6, C69 - all with holds - play the same 'insistent and loud' C triad
- And holds with Cm7, Cm9, Cm11 all play the same 'insistent and loud' Cm triad.
4) Trying different piano RTs (bossa and swing at different tempos) I get the same insistent 'block triad' sound with any held-chord - which is what makes me think it's midi, but I may be wrong.
I wonder if BIAB staff could comment on how jazz piano RT holds are supposed to work - or if there's something wrong with my set-up.... ? (As I said in the first post, I think I have everything up to date.)
Thanks again to all. Best - Andy
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,616
Expert
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Expert
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,616 |
Andy,
I've heard what you're talking about with the piano RT holds. In your RT settings, there is a checkbox for 'Jazz Up Triads to Sevenths'. Make sure that is checked.
Also, you may want to listen to some of the piano holds WMA files in the Holds_2 folder. If that is what you're hearing there probably is nothing else you can do except cut back on using them or blend in a Midi hold/shot to the mix.
R
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 8,021
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 8,021 |
FYI
Styles do not do anything to Real Tracks. You can have a "blank" style up there and if you manually assign RTs to each instrument they will sound exactly the same.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,449
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,449 |
Andy, for what it's worth, I have 138 folders in the Library/Holds folder, not 91. The latest are dated July 10, 2010.
You are correct, the Style selected has no effect on individual Real Track instruments.
The push by 1/8 does work for Real Drums.
About the chord types that are held, Peter Gannon explained that there are some chord types that are supported, but the rest are not. Of course, major and minor chords are supported, and there were two or three others. I won't guess, though; I'll try to find his post.
[EDIT: can't find the info. Does anyone else have this? The chord types that are and are not supported by holds?]
Last edited by Matt Finley; 10/10/10 07:18 AM.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 8,021
Veteran
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Veteran
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,449
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Thank you, Rachael!
That is the post I was thinking of.
It mentions support for pushes on certain chord types, but says nothing about holds. So, never mind.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 138
Apprentice
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OP
Apprentice
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Posts: 138 |
Hi Matt , Rachael and All,
I think Peter Gannon's mail of 7-6-10 - the one you refer to Matt - settles the issue. I've pasted if below :
<< Hi Ray, You are correct, the pushes will play straight C7 chords.
The pushes (and holds) are in a separate Library. We haven't recorded pushses for every possible chord type - (due to space limitation) just the "main ones" - C, Cm, C7, Cm7, Cdim, Cm7b5, Csus, Csus7
So if you type a C7#9, and want it pushed, you'd hear a C7 on the push instead of C7#9.
Note that the C7#9 will play later in the pattern, just that first stab is the C7 plain. >>
To my reading, Peter is saying that RT holds (as well as pushes) use the basic triad only - which is why it sounds so incongruous, I'd thought it was midi interjecting itslef somehow....!
Sadly, I think this means that RT holds and pushes are pretty hard to use with normal jazz numbers - unless you're prepared to have an insistent simple triad in there....(and, to my ear, a simple triad louder than the rest of the piano RT too...) ?
What do you think ?
Thanks again - Best - Andy
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Yes, Andy, that is the same post Rachael found. To my reading, it describes pushes very well but is not clear how many chord types support holds.
Another post during beta testing said that the volume of pushes was reduces, to make them stand out less. I remember when this was accomplished.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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