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Unfortunately music does not bring in the money that sports do in higher ed, so sports will always win out ($$).
That battle has already been lost
But music is important. It needs to stay too. As evidenced by this thread and many studies ...
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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A few nursing homes and assisted living facilities and nursing homes got wind of this, and started hiring us. Short gigs, mid-weeks, low pay, but fill-in work. This is great man! Must be rewarding to see those old folks light up when you play for them. Sounds like a great application for BiaB, all you really need is some vocals and you've got a complete live band.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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Unfortunately music does not bring in the money that sports do in higher ed, so sports will always win out ($$).
That battle has already been lost
But music is important. It needs to stay too. As evidenced by this thread and many studies ... But what does sports have to do with education? And elderly people having pains and difficulties because of a sports accident in school is so common that it is a common trope in TV, Movie, and Book fiction. Any school that makes its money with sports, and where the coach gets paid more than the other teachers, is simply a sports franchise with a side hack of educating kids. Thanks to music education, I'm making a living doing what I love to do, instead of punching a clock and being a wage-slave for some overpaid corporate head. Sorry for the rant.
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Unfortunately music does not bring in the money that sports do in higher ed, so sports will always win out ($$).
That battle has already been lost
But music is important. It needs to stay too. As evidenced by this thread and many studies ... But what does sports have to do with education? And elderly people having pains and difficulties because of a sports accident in school is so common that it is a common trope in TV, Movie, and Book fiction. Any school that makes its money with sports, and where the coach gets paid more than the other teachers, is simply a sports franchise with a side hack of educating kids. Thanks to music education, I'm making a living doing what I love to do, instead of punching a clock and being a wage-slave for some overpaid corporate head. Sorry for the rant. I totally agree with your rant Notes, which one possible exception. I'm not sure they are educating kids.
My boss calls me "the computer".
Nothing to do with intelligence. I go to sleep if left unattended for 15 minutes.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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<...snip...>
I totally agree with your rant Notes, which one possible exception. I'm not sure they are educating kids. You've got a good point there.
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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My mom passed last month. In one of the opening events tonight for NAMM she is included in the 'in memory' part. For her contributions to music education. // Miss ya mom, you done good I just bring this up to A. honor her B. reinforce how important music is in education Hope to have a link shortly. I was just notified and it takes longer to fly there than I have before the event.  https://www.namm.org/library/oral-history/namm-industry-tribute-2026
Last edited by rharv; Yesterday at 03:20 PM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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I once wrote an essay in college about how much a musicians brain works while playing
It's amazing how much we do without even thinking about it.
That was really the draw for me to this thread initially, hoping people appreciate how intertwined we are with music, and how music helps our brains.
I know it sounds silly in this day and age but we need to keep music in our schools. I agree that we need to keep and even increase music in our (US) K-12 schools. Personally, I had next to none in school and none as an adult. It would be interesting to hear from folks in Canada, Europe or Australia on this subject from their school perspective. The problem is that there are only so many hours in a school day and so many school days in a year. Imho we also need to prioritize, STEM, history, civics, language and critical thinking skills so that youngsters are prepared for jobs, careers and citizenship in the 21st century, beyond just music. Care to share your essay? Levitin doesn’t spend a lot of time on music “education” per-se but he does say: Many of the greatest musicians of our era lacked formal training, including Sinatra, Louis Armstrong, John Coltrane, Eric Clapton, Eddie Van Halen, Stevie Wonder and Joni Mitchell. And in classical music, George Gershwin, Mussorgsky and David Helfgott are among those who lacked formal training, and Beethoven considered his own training to have been poor according to his diaries.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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I once wrote an essay in college about how much a musicians brain works while playing
It's amazing how much we do without even thinking about it. ... Care to share your essay? ... Eh, I've shared it here before. Ain't nothing to brag about https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=864977#Post864977
Last edited by rharv; 8 hours ago.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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I agree that we need to keep and even increase music in our (US) K-12 schools. Personally, I had next to none in school and none as an adult. It would be interesting to hear from folks in Canada, Europe or Australia on this subject from their school perspective. In the UK, music is certainly still on the curriculum, though how well it's handled is another matter. In my school days, ~60 years ago now, music was also on the curriculum. In elementary school I learned the note lengths & names(*) and played the occasional 'ting' on a triangle. When I started high school we listened to The Beatles, but I don't remember being taught anything. I specialised then in mechanical engineering, which is a pretty big and complex subject, and too make the time for that I progressively had to drop other subjects. Music was an early one to go. My parents weren't musical; my grandfather was a piano tuner and played piano by ear. He wouldn't teach me because "that's not the right way to learn the piano". So I pretty much had no music education until I was 58 and started piano lessons. Frankly, I still struggle with music. IMHO, anyone with a musical skill who has children, right from pre-toddler, should expose them to music encourage participation, but not force them. It can be pretty hard otherwise.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
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...........................................
Levitin doesn’t spend a lot of time on music “education” per-se but he does say:
Many of the greatest musicians of our era lacked formal training, including Sinatra, Louis Armstrong, John Coltrane, Eric Clapton, Eddie Van Halen, Stevie Wonder and Joni Mitchell. And in classical music, George Gershwin, Mussorgsky and David Helfgott are among those who lacked formal training, and Beethoven considered his own training to have been poor according to his diaries. IMHO if you take all of the musicians in an orchestra, pit bands, bands backing TV shows, etc I would bet that those who made it with no formal training is a small minority. Plus of those whom you listed I'll bet some can read music so they did have some formal training. https://www.louisarmstronghouse.org/faq/could-louis-armstrong-read-music/https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/song-joni-mitchell-relearn-piano-david-crosby/I guess the real question is what does one consider as formal training. Lessons on a instrument? A college degree? When I was teaching theory to my guitar and bass students I stressed learn theory but don't let it dictate your playing. Learn theory to enhance your skill bass (scales, how chords are formed,etc) and to analyze what you played but always play from your heart. YMMV
My boss calls me "the computer".
Nothing to do with intelligence. I go to sleep if left unattended for 15 minutes.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Levitin doesn’t spend a lot of time on music “education” per-se but he does say:
Many of the greatest musicians of our era lacked formal training, including Sinatra, Louis Armstrong, John Coltrane, Eric Clapton, Eddie Van Halen, Stevie Wonder and Joni Mitchell. And in classical music, George Gershwin, Mussorgsky and David Helfgott are among those who lacked formal training, and Beethoven considered his own training to have been poor according to his diaries. "Greatest musicians" according to what standard? I think he's conflating "popular" with "greatest". I recall reading an anecdote by Leonard Bernstein, where his publisher was complaining that no one was leaving his musicals "whistling his tunes", and thus not buying sheet music. So Lenny sat down with his librettist to write a something simple and memorable. At the end of the exercise, he had nothing except a new-found respect for people who created popular music. It's not as easy as it seems. That said, let's break down that lack of "formal training". Mind, you, I'm relying on AI summaries, so there could be errors, but unlike Letvin, I actually did some research before declaring this group of people lacking in formal training. All right, on to the AI summaries. Spoiler Alert: Only Eric Clapton and Joni Mitchell had no formal training. As a bonus, there are a number of child prodigies in his list. Frank Sinatra: He practiced holding a glass of water on his stomach while lying down to master diaphragm control. He also learned to sustain long phrases by observing Dorsey's trombone playing. To build stamina for singing, Sinatra used to swim, often trying to swim the length of a pool on one breath. Early in his career, he worked with coach John Quinlan to improve his range and eliminate his Hoboken accent, which led to a co-authored book, "Tips on Popular Singing". He spent years on the road with big bands, learning how to phrase, use a microphone, and interpret lyrics. Louis Armstrong: His musical training was primarily informal, rooted in the streets of New Orleans, but solidified by early formal training at the Colored Waif’s Home for Boys, where he learned the cornet and music reading from instructor Peter Davis. He developed his skills through mentorship with King Oliver, street corner singing, playing on riverboats, and absorbing the local jazz, blues, and brass band scene. John Coltrane: His training was a blend of early formal music education, rigorous self-teaching, and extensive "on-the-job" training in jazz, R&B, and big bands. He studied theory at Philadelphia's Granoff Studios and the Ornstein School of Music. His formative years involved playing with Dizzy Gillespie, Miles Davis, and Thelonious Monk, where he mastered complex harmonic structures Eric Clapton: He was primarily a self-taught guitarist who developed his skills by ear, obsessively listening to and emulating Delta blues artists like Robert Johnson, as well as modern bluesmen like Freddie King and Buddy Guy. He practiced for hours daily, using a reel-to-reel recorder to analyze his playing. Eddie Van Halen: His primary formal training was in classical piano, which he studied for roughly 10 years from age six, developing a strong sense of music theory, dexterity, and, notably, the ability to play by ear rather than reading sheet music. He did not take formal guitar lessons, instead teaching himself by listening to records and practicing intensely for hours daily. Stevie Wonder: He is primarily a self-taught musical prodigy who mastered piano, harmonica, and drums before age 10. His formal training included studying classical piano, music theory, and learning to read/write music using Braille. He later received vocal training from renowned coach Seth Riggs, starting around age 19. Joni Mitchell: She was largely a self-taught musician, driven by intuition and a desire to avoid conventional styles, rather than formal music training. Her artistic education included roughly a year studying art in Alberta, but she primarily trained herself on ukulele, guitar, and, after polio weakened her hand, innovative, self-devised alternative tunings. George Gershwin: His musical training was a blend of limited formal piano instruction, hands-on experience as a Tin Pan Alley "song plugger", and intensive private study of harmony, theory, and orchestration with various mentors throughout his life. He was largely self-taught in composition early on, learning through imitation and practice before studying with teachers like Charles Hambitzer (piano) and Henry Cowell. Modest Mussorgsky He had limited formal musical training, relying primarily on piano lessons from his mother and later Anton Gerke. His mother taught him piano from age six, and he was an exceptionally skilled pianist from a young age. This was followed by informal composition guidance from Mily Balakirev starting in 1857, who provided guidance in musical composition and exposed him to Western composers like Berlioz, Liszt, and Schumann. He was largely self-taught in composition, focusing on developing a unique, nationalistic style rather than traditional Western techniques. David Helfgott He received training as a child prodigy in Australia by local teachers in Perth, including composer James Penberthy. At age 17, he began studying with Alice Carrard, a former student of Béla Bartók and István Thomán. He secured a scholarship to the prestigious Royal College of Music in London at age 19, studying under renowned pianist Cyril Smith, who described him as a brilliant talent comparable to Horowitz. His training focused on classical repertoire, specifically Rachmaninoff, and he won several awards at the RCM, including the Dannreuther Prize.
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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