The Multiriff feature is fantastic, at least, compared to how BIAB used to work it is. But it can still be time-consuming and frustrating, clicking the buttons over and over, hoping to get something different/useful. And sometimes there seem to be no different RT bits for a bar as I keep pressing the button and keep getting the same bits.
So, I'd like to suggest a new option that is more like EZ Keys from Toontrack. In that program you still have bits/riffs/patterns but instead of clicking a button and waiting for the program to show you a single option, they have all their options in an easy to navigate grid where I can preview any or all of them and easily insert them into my track.
I love how quickly I can assemble a track using EZ Keys and feel this would be an excellent and powerful addition to BIAB!
+1 "And sometimes there seem to be no different RT bits for a bar as I keep pressing the button and keep getting the same bits."
However there is one major difference between EZ and BIAB that I don't believe is resolvable in exact way you described. EZ keys is a pre-determined MIDI phrase based library. You get what you choose. With BIAB it is far more complex as it uses PGM algorithm /randomizer to glue pieces together from existing recorded data. To put this in a real life scenario: Lets say you do partial regen on bar #5 and BIAB gives you 10 choices to pick from. You listen, choose, move on. If you decide to go back to that bar #5 later and try a different stem. What do you think must happen now? Should it give you (remember) same choices in same order or do a new random generation? What is even more complex, if you use a sectional partial regeneration, which could fall on section of 2 bars at once, a freehand selection (not whole bars).
Having said this, this is my take on your wish, that I believe is more realistic to accomplish. Pre-requisite: Non-modal , floating menu - so you have access to refine selection on UI, use main transport controls, etc. (as of now, menu is modal) 1) Make a selection of a bar, several bars, or any segment freehand. 2) Generate unique stems in a list. Click to listen / choose 3) (This is a tricky one) If you like other(s) stems from generated batch - there should be a mechanism to save these "favorite" in a list with location info and ability to insert them in any place of the composition. Since BIAB can save instructions, instead of rendered audio, it should not take a lot of space, but all others, that you don't want must vanish.
------------------------------------------ Partial regeneration through the context menu or direct (Ctrl+F8) is one of the most powerful tools BIAB has to offer. It had been around for few years now. In my view, if to upgrade, it should be upgraded the right way (not necessarily what I proposed), but so it not only does certain new functions, but is fully integrated in new UI / modern workflow.
Yeah, I get that what BIAB does is more complex but, as a practical matter, what I usually get from multiriff does not seem to contain the variety that that complexity implies! Most times, when I go through a few options, I start to get repeats pretty quickly so I think, under the hood, there may be more standardized groupings of the bits and pieces than what you describe. Maybe a better option would be for BIAB to present a set of phrases it has generated rather than the forward/back button approach. Perhaps that is what you are describing?
Also, because of the algorithmic method BIAB uses rather than a human-curated set of phrases, I often notice odd phrasings that don't sound correct or natural. And I wonder if BIAB has built-in controls that prevent phrases that would be impossible/highly unlikely to actually play on an instrument?
Maybe a better option would be for BIAB to present a set of phrases it has generated rather than the forward/back button approach. Perhaps that is what you are describing?
As I've mentioned: "2) Generate unique stems in a list. Click to listen / choose" - A group of non-repeat stems to choose from.
Originally Posted by JohnJohnJohn
And I wonder if BIAB has built-in controls that prevent phrases that would be impossible/highly unlikely to actually play on an instrument
Kind of / sort of. If you are doing partial regen by selecting bars at Chord View it does a rough cut partial regen. Try going to Audio View and see how the phrase was formed and make selection with a wider range. I found that this technique, while having it's own set of issues (which I will describe later) produces more natural phrasing.
---- Unfortunately, not many people are even aware of Partial Regeneration. To me, it was a game changer.
And I wonder if BIAB has built-in controls that prevent phrases that would be impossible/highly unlikely to actually play on an instrument
Kind of / sort of. If you are doing partial regen by selecting bars at Chord View it does a rough cut partial regen. Try going to Audio View and see how the phrase was formed and make selection with a wider range. I found that this technique, while having it's own set of issues (which I will describe later) produces more natural phrasing.
Not sure you got my question. Does BIAB prevent things in generation that would not be possible for an actual player to do? I ask because I have heard some things that sound really odd and at least unlikely if not impossible for a live player.
Quote
Unfortunately, not many people are even aware of Partial Regeneration. To me, it was a game changer.
Are you referring to the process of selecting one or more bars and then choosing multiriff? Or something completely different?
... Not sure you got my question. Does BIAB prevent things in generation that would not be possible for an actual player to do? I ask because I have heard some things that sound really odd and at least unlikely if not impossible for a live player. ...
I recall watching some of the 'Video Real Tracks' (where the performer had been video recorded playing certain phrases), and knowing that some of the articulations of the performers hands between phrases were impossible to achieve in real time. This was acknowledged at the time by PGM staff. I think this might be related to the issue being discussed here.
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Hopefully not to confuse the conversation. (my two cents) I usually work exclusively in the plugin which has supported Riffs for specific bars for about three to four years. It still can't do partial generations!
I use the RIFF feature with comping inside the DAW to pick and choose realistic solos. With a little bit of work you can come up with a realistic solo. However it's worth mentioning that you can hear the repeated phrases usually within two to three comps. So there is a limited set of phrasings possible.
Partial gens are extremely important especially when it comes to solos.
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John, Partial regen & multiriff are very close related. In my mind, it should be a single platform and integrated properly in new UI.
I don't get it! How do I do "Partial regen" instead of "multiriff"? And why in the world are they separate things? I searched the help system on "Partial Generation" and came away more confused than before I read it!
Currently how I use this is, - click an instrument name to select its track in the mixer - select one or more bars I wish to change - right-click and choose Multiriff - click the Next button until/if I get something I like - click the Accept button if I like what I got - or if not, I click the X at top right but the window fails to close so I then click the Close button
This seems to work OK except sometimes I get few to no usable variations.
Is there some other way to do "Partial Generation" that works better or is more feature rich?
John, Partial regen & multiriff are very close related. In my mind, it should be a single platform and integrated properly in new UI.
I don't get it! How do I do "Partial regen" instead of "multiriff"? And why in the world are they separate things?
Best I can answer this is the fact multi riffs were introduced earlier than Partial Regen. And yes, in most typical workflows, Partial regen is preferred. You know how PGM loves redundancy! And keep in mind there are two partial regen methods - more redundancy.
Ctrl+F8 is a shortcut used for Partial Track Re-Generation, allowing you to regenerate a selected portion of a RealTrack to create variations. F8 is another partial regen which is also used for re-generating tracks in older versions. Compared to the traditional MultiRiffs feature, these hotkeys provide a faster, more interactive, and granular workflow for honing in on a specific performance.
What I am proposing is combining both tools into one and fixing issues, such as repeated segments, unnatural shifts, etc. and integrating it to new UI as non-modal, dockable (or floating) panel. Partial regen was a groundbreaking feature, but it needs more work.
---
Originally Posted by JohnJohnJohn
[quote=Rustyspoon#] Is there some other way to do "Partial Generation" that works better or is more feature rich?
JJJ, did you really not know about Cntrl F8? There has been a lot of commentary about this feature, but maybe not in the main forum. It does suffer from one limitation - it does not work on RT's which are 1/2 time or 2x time. Rusty has been pushing that with PGM.
JJJ, did you really not know about Cntrl F8? There has been a lot of commentary about this feature, but maybe not in the main forum. It does suffer from one limitation - it does not work on RT's which are 1/2 time or 2x time. Rusty has been pushing that with PGM.
No, Dan, as I might have mentioned before, I avoid most BIAB features because I have fallen down so many dead end rabbitholes with this product that I just don't have the time to waste or remaining hair to pull out for those things.
Once the multiriff feature became available (and proved itself to be a worthwhile rabbithole) I mostly decided I was set with BIAB! I choose my RTs, freeze them and then use multiriff to modify the bars that I don't like. Then I export dry and centered and GTFO ASAP to my DAW!
I viewed Misha's video and quickly realized why I never even stumbled upon this feature...I have NEVER used the Audio Edit window. But, I decided to give it a try and was immediately annoyed by the interface! I clicked and dragged to select a portion of the timeline and then decided to adjust it a little larger but nope, you have to do it again. Can't just adjust the start/stop markers you've already set, at least I couldn't figure out how.
But I can see how this gives greater control over regenerating sections beyond just bars so I guess I see the value. I'll try this more fully on my next song where I need regen.
What I am proposing is combining both tools into one and fixing issues, such as repeated segments, unnatural shifts, etc. and integrating it to new UI as non-modal, dockable (or floating) panel. Partial regen was a groundbreaking feature, but it needs more work.
---
Originally Posted by JohnJohnJohn
[quote=Rustyspoon#] Is there some other way to do "Partial Generation" that works better or is more feature rich?
John, Here is my take on this. If PGM continues going forward with modernizing program, as it did this year with UI, the whole multiriff / partial regeneration concept is a solid candidate to tackle for 2027.
I believe the naughty "selection" behaviour you are describing belongs with another very important group begging to be addressed: navigation/transport, which includes playhead marker, timeline, zoom level consistency, looping and a few others.
< Can't just adjust the start/stop markers you've already set, at least I couldn't figure out how.>
Not to interrupt the conversation but holding down the shift key while left clicking on the Stop line after the selection is already set allows the stop line to be adjusted. Adjustment can be done either by mouse clicking another spot or dragging once the Shift key is pressed and held.
I gave some thought to what needs to be improved in partial regen and here is an issue, that I believe is the most significant.
When selecting a section to be regenerated, BIAB is not respecting what happens before or after the phrase. It would offer pieces to match chord, but often not natural to a larger segment that your selection is a part of.
I believe to tackle this, there should be an adjustment of selection - "interpolation". Meaning BIAB would look ahead and beyond regenerated selection with X (user adjustable) value and come up with a part that is more natural for part selection being regenerated. It seems it's doing that for larger selections, but with granular, sometimes it takes a lot of wrestling to get it right, including unwanted repeats. Also, there should be a second adjustable value to determine of how much of end points BIAB could change for natural transition.
The difference between 2 adjustments I propose is: 1 will just look "ahead"- non destructive. 2 will determine of how much can can be changed beyond either side of selection for natural transition.
Misha, I believe you are talking about leading tones. That is an area that need help IMHO, not just in multiriff and partial regeneration but in style generation. Sometimes BiaB jumps around making different sections sound not as a smooth transition but a little disjointed. YMMV
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Problems arise in voice leading and register jumping.
I get better success by selecting two, four or eight measures for partial regeneration, since I believe based on past discussions that those are the lengths BIAB tries to combine. Only one measure means it will always be chopped.
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Not quite. It depends on many factors and often it is a matter of actual phrase(s) that were recorded and luck. I have not experimented with the super secret menu Charlie pointed out yet. However, even if it does work to some extent, it has to be incorporated in the workflow.
In my mind, this whole conversation is about 4 items: For partial regeneration parts to sound more natural, no repeats, greater granular control, and ease of use (workflow).
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And keep in mind there are two partial regen methods - more redundancy.
There has been a lot of commentary about this feature, but maybe not in the main forum. It does suffer from one limitation - it does not work on RT's which are 1/2 time or 2x time. Rusty has been pushing that with PGM.
Who will be the last one still standing when these final items are addressed? 
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