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As any jazzer will know the 'I got Rhythm' chords by George Gershwin have been worked and reworked a thousand times into a myriad of songs. BIAB only has one version as far as I can see and this one is a bit unusual.
How about a whole suite of songs all based on Rythmn changes, but with those subtle variations that have work their way into the repertoire - all with nice real tracks of course
Zero
Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k
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Theyre probably there already as free downloads online from a variety of sources.
I think it's a case of learning substitution theory and using the BIAB chord substitution wizard to come up with variants of your own. The unusual one your referring to presumably was the one in the previous thread you mentioned..
BbMaj 7, G7#5#9/ Cm7, F7#5#9 / Dm7 ,G7#5#9/ Cm7, f7#5##9/ Bb9, Bb9/Eb9, Edim/Bb6slashf /Cm7 F7#5#9
...This one is not so difficult to understand as long as
a) You have certain principles of chord substitution in mind. The most important in this case is that every scale chord has its own V chord that can played before it. So G7#5#9 isn't just an arbitary choice. Its the V of the II chord Cm7. The build up of tensions seem arbitary but they're not. The #5 and #9 are there because these two tones are the b3rd and b7th of the the next chord. producing smooth voice leading in the chord changes.
b) If you remember that variations in chord progressions on a given tune are fundamentally about producing a type of bass line/chord root movement in counterpoint to the melody/counter melody and the above mentioned voice leading in the chord tones.
c) You understand that the resulting exotic V chord variants chords dont suggest changes in key.. they're transient dissonances resolving quickly to the diatonic chord..much as stepwise melodic chromaticism resolves up or down to the scale or chord tone. Also taken as a whole the G7#5#9 gives more tension at the appropriate point and supports more note choices for the soloist.
I hope this helps clear up the apparent difficulty with all these variations.
Alan
Last edited by alan S.; 11/17/10 10:20 AM.
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Thank you Alan for a decent explanation. I am a sax player so on this instrument I didnt really think about chords like a pianist (only one note to worry about at any given moment). I am now learning piano. I understand jazz modes, inversions and concepts like 251s etc.
I do think you know what you are talking about - but I dont understand your point a)
I always thought of the A section of RC's as fundamentally major diatonic in tonality (1625 ) and see the third chord as a DORIAN minor which would not give the particular chord you are talking of as the 'V chord of the II chord' this would be another 'simple' minor in the Aeolian position (natural minor) both dorian and aeolian have perfect fifths, flat thirds and sevenths they only vary in their sixth tones. So you are talking some other kind of minor?
The chord is written as G7 not G minor, (ostensively squashing my 'aoelian' theory) - do we take it as read that the major third of the G7+5+9 chord is abandoned? The plus 9 to me suggest a flat third - on the sax (in my ignborance) I simply treated this as a blues third.
How might this chord be voiced as a kind of first base thing?
An alternative explanation is that it is common to sharpen the third in the fifth chord in a minor tonality - simply to create more definition at the dominant position?
I see the 'literal' interpretation of this chord symbol as being a G7 - G B D F with an altered 5th (so D gets sharpened) and a #9 (A# on the top of the chord). Voicing this chord this way seems a bit pointless to me so obviously I have something wrong.
You said that the #5 and #9 where the flat third and seventh of the next chord ie. Cm , well this makes sense, so, functionaly they are there to create a dissonance which resolves into the C minor chord? Is this the function of these extensions?
thanks for your help
Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k
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"You said that the #5 and #9 where the flat third and seventh of the next chord ie. Cm , well this makes sense, so, functionaly they are there to create a dissonance which resolves into the C minor chord? Is this the function of these extensions?"
That's pretty much how I see it. Generally the extensions should fit the melody as well but primarily they are their to enhance the tension properties of the chord and to smoothly progress to the resolving chord.
"I always thought of the A section of RC's as fundamentally major diatonic in tonality (1625 ) and see the third chord as a DORIAN minor which would not give the particular chord you are talking of as the 'V chord of the II chord' this would be another 'simple' minor in the Aeolian position (natural minor) both dorian and aeolian have perfect fifths, flat thirds and sevenths they only vary in their sixth tones. So you are talking some other kind of minor? "
Secondary dominants by their very nature (as in the V of II instance ) shouldn't be seen as having to conform strictly to diatonic note choices. Therefore it isn't a question of having to justify certain extensions with reference to modal degrees. The V of (dorian) isn't intended to be seen as an aeolian chord any more than say a passing diminished 7th chord on the bII degree is strictly a diatonic chord. In each case they are used because of their resolving tendencies.
You could claim that, taken as whole, any one bar of II V constitutes a temporary key centre, and that's an option you have as a soloist to treat it that way, but over the course of a 4 or 8 bar phrase its still fundamentally about a progression supporting a melody in a given key.
Alan
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thank you Alan its making more sense now, your explanations are testimony to a true understanding.
One more question pleased:
The notion of secondary dominants helps., and I take the point that a secondary dominant does not have to be seen in terms of the modal degree - .....I er... think....
So you have this modal dorian minor(say D) and you want its secondary dominant. I dont know how to find it except counting up to the fifth degree and then creating a triad on this note using the minor scale tones. This gives an A minor .. which is the Aeolian which you are stating it is not.
Obviously there is something I dont understand, perhaps you are talking harmonic or melodic minor?
I do notice that often in a minor key the fifth chord is 'substituted' with a 7th chord in order to give a cripsness and definition to the tension of this position perhaps it is simply this that is intended?
Is it simply that the secondary dominant is always a 7 chord and never anything else?
thanks for the input
Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k
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