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TV's even better if you take other drugs while you watch.
- Bud
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Pat,
I stand corrected on the "hypocrisy" statement. I edited the post.
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Quote:
Pat,
I stand corrected on the "hypocrisy" statement. I edited the post.
Gee, now I feel bad.
I see discussion like this as personal perspective, not as absolute truth. If I offer an opposing point of view, it certainly isn't a dismissal of any other point of view...simply a statement of why I may see it differently. I accept your original statement completely in the context of your post. If my reply seemed like a correction, I apologize.. that was not my intent.
I like hearing many points of view. This is a philosophical group, and I am always amazed by the variety of opinions that can be held by 50 different but equally rational minds.
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Pat,
You shouldn't feel bad. Most of us ocassionally need a friend to suggest that we "tone down" our statements.
The discourse wasn't meant to be offensive, but as a way of looking at the topic at hand and the fact that all of us who use programs like BIAB are contributing to the problem of musicians being replaced by electronic media.
Do I plan on continuing to use BIAB? You betcha. If I ever start gigging again, will I use BIAB instead of live musicians? In some cases, yes. Preferably, no. Why? Because I prefer a more "improvisational" approach. If someones on a roll and they want to take 2 breaks instead of one, ... let 'er rip. If they want add an extra bar or two at the end of a solo, that's good too.
But if I'm simply trying to make a buck playing covers or songs in a "fixed" format, I'd skip the other musicians and use BIAB.
Of course that would knock other musicians out of potential work, hence the topic at hand.
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If one wants agnst amongst freelance musicians you could study anthropology / history /music of the 1700's to the 1800's. Talk about turmoil. The steady income from 'patrons' or guys who kept you with the servants (slaves) and made you do stuff for the niece or wife who played the viola, suddenly found themselves trying to make a living selling pieces of music...and many fled to England where the 'lower' classes at least had roast beef and some way to survive.....
This has repeated itself for many centuries... don't despair....we are but a drop in time...to every thing there is a season.....turn turn turn ,...upside down.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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This is a super interesting thread and I'm totally not surprised about anything each of you have said and observed (and pointed out)....and just imagine further what additional impact is coming with 3D TV (it's impressive....already just like being there...the only thing missing is the smoke, smell, touch and personal interaction with the band) and, in another short while, robotics (we already have very impressive "animusic")....I can easily see it now: a live musical (of any music genre...you get to select that with a button push...no actually it'll probably be with just a verbal request) played entirely by robotic humanoids (we already have the successful hologram entertainer approach) that go through all the physical motions of a live band choreographed (even with improvisation based on randomization possibly to make each act unique across multiple performances...even on repeats of the same tune....even with a singer whose voice is up to you to choose as well (including your own....that'll just require your entering a bar or two of your own voice once at an earlier point in time).
Don't kid yourself, this robotics stuff in coming in a big, big way to all businesses and homes (China has a gigantic "leg up" on that right now...with many many things planned for operational release in the very near future). Soon your robot will mow for you (actually that's already here), fetch your beer or Dr. Pepper (a little more work is going on here in case your refrigerator is upstairs or in the basement), go outside and start the car to let it warm up prior to your leaving for work (that's actually here already also with the push of a button on your keychain for some vehicles), go fetch the morning paper (and read it to you if you wish) and, yes, even then play the melody of any tune you select (where BIAB plays the background rhythm...this capability is already here with BIAB 2011, cough, cough). So where will that leave the professional musician then?
Anything that Chet/Eric/Les/Stevie Ray etc., could do, I can imagine a very human-like robot (i.e., humanoid) programmed to not "miss a single lick", including facial expressions, body language, and even vocals if you so request) playing an actual instrument whereby you get to see the whole thing up close. My guess is that PGMusic is already looking downstream at their strategy when this "rounds the corner", right, Peter? Initially the background band will probably be in the form that animusic uses now....but, a band member at a time could be UPSed or FedExed in until you get the whole band purchased (they will occupy a corner, possibly, of your music room). You only need one initially to play one backup rhythm instrument. He/she won't eat your groceries, talk back, have an ego, play whenever you wish, carry on a conversation, make suggestions to improve your play/vocals, etc. etc....that could be nice.
I'd love to hear a panel discussion about all this with certain ones on the panel from this forum (including each of you in this thread).
Oh well....I'm in education and, well, I got to worry about "distance learning" and related things seriously impacting my future also...oh wait a minute, I'm 66 already...its my younger colleagues that have to step up to the challenge on that one. I'm outta there soon (to do music for "fun and grins" the rest of my life...with my BIAB-based robot friends assuming everyone else is busy watching TV).
I look forward to further thoughts from others about the "future of music and musicians"...I'm seriously worried about ya'll,
Cecil
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If we keep on automating away our physical activity, trading our own energy for mechanical energy, humans will end up as soft fat blobs with tiny arms and legs, good only for pushing buttons.
- Bud
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I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Journeyman
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In the 70s I played 3 nights a week to full house clubs and made decent money.
In the 80s I played weekends at Blues Clubs in NYC mostly for free.
Then it dried up.
I moved upstate NY, 1987 and there were bands playing every night. I got gigs like the 70s. Lots of rock and country. Very roudy bars and clubs. Even played Motorcycle Races. They were scary gigs. Very rough crowds and outdoors. One country biker club, we played behind a metal mesh to block the beer bottles. Too many drunks and fights.
By 1990 DJs filled the bars and clubs and it was over up here.
I played my last paying gig the summer of 1989, to a crowd of about 10.
After that I played for free at churches and homes for the disabled.
By 2000 I was done.
Wayne,
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Quote:
If we keep on automating away our physical activity, trading our own energy for mechanical energy, humans will end up as soft fat blobs with tiny arms and legs, good only for pushing buttons.
You know what being a solo act with backing tracks means? You carry ALL the gear in and out yourself.Sing ALL the songs yourself. Carry all the gear back yourself. Get ALL the money yourself. Have to take ALL the blame yourself. Take ALL the glory>
Love it!
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Journeyman
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A friend of mine in the late 70s, played Broadway shows and played out with jazz sax player, Stanley Turrentine. He stayed with Stanley Turrentine because of the promise of recording. It never happenned, so he left.
When I spoke to him by the mid 80s he was a computer programmer. He said most of the Broadway gigs dried up along with the Jazz. He also did a lot of studio work for NBC. That ended too. The players from SNL were doing all the promos.
I looked him up and now he teaches music in NY.
He was awesome and I'm sure he still is.
P.S. Just got an invite to an apartment concert with Bucky Pizzarelli in NYC.
No charge, all donations appreciated. Things have changed.
Wayne,
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Journeyman
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On more post! Comedian Steve Martin also has a successful career as a bluegrass musician. After releasing several albums, he's finally started to get royalty checks. On Martin's web site where he's posted actual copies of three checks totaling 13 cents under the headline: "People say the music business is suffering, but it's NOT." http://stevemartin.com/Wayne,
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In some cases, we as musicians have brought it on ourselves.
My nephew played in a tight 4 piece country band. (Bass, drums, lead guitar,
and pedal steel)
Not too many gigs but enought so they could keep up their licks and enjoy themselves.
Mostly in a non-smoking casino, which they enjoyed.
They weren't allowed to drink when playing the gig.
Unfortunately, one member(not my nephew), started adding booze to his coke
bottle between sets. One night we got so wasted he couldn't finish the last set.
They likely will never be given a chance to play that casino again, and as it's
not a big city, the news got around really fast, so maybe no gigs at all.
My nephew quit and joined another band.
I'm sure we all have a story like this to tell. A few bad apples ....
But it's reality, and you couldn't blame the casino if they hired a DJ.
LLOYD S
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You sound old  I'm not far behind. Chase some kids off your lawn and you'll feel better; works for me sometimes I had a similar experience to Steve Martin. I kept the royaly check; and the envelope with the stamp that was more than the check. It cost them more to mail it to me than the check was worth. I think it's a 17 cent check and a 30 cent stamp. I still want to frame those. If I drove to the bank to cash it, I lost money.
Last edited by rharv; 12/10/10 04:23 PM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Journeyman
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Journeyman
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I'm 58, but I look about 75. That's why I took down my old picture. It looks like my son! (If I had one)
Like I always say, "It's not the year, it's the mileage."
Wayne,
"Get off my lawn, or mow it!" as I wave my cane like a crazy old man.
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Expert
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Citaat:
You know what being a solo act with backing tracks means? You carry ALL the gear in and out yourself.Sing ALL the songs yourself. Carry all the gear back yourself. Get ALL the money yourself. Have to take ALL the blame yourself. Take ALL the glory>
Love it!
I used to take a sound tech with me on quite a lot of gigs. Nowadays I can only afford to take him with me on larger venues where I can't possibly work the knobs myself. Just a matter of fewer bookings and having to keep the stove burning... Actually quite a few bars I used to play at have gone bankrupt the last two years. (come on...joke's on me: They went broke because......)
Being a solo act really means: packing the PA, driving to the gig (ranging from 30 minutes to 3 hours), setting up the PA, doing the 4 hour long show (at the same time being the sound engineer and keeping an eye on the equipment), packing up the PA, driving back home, unloading the PA again.
Yeah.....it's the easy life
(No, not complaining; the moment I start to hate my job is the moment I will find another way of making a living)
As for TV. The higher the quality of the TV-sets is nowadays, the lower the quality of programs that are made. I mean, come on. Most programs nowadays make Dallas (the soap, not the city) look like Shakespeare 
Then there are the really boring pauses between the commercials.... Watch a movie on TV? Better go to the cinema or rent the DVD (no, no blueray in my house yet: most music concerts are released on DVD, not on blueray) When I do watch TV, I tune in on Discovery, National Geographic, History.
But be fair. It isn't all bad news with the new technology. Thanks to PG-Music and Steinberg I have a complete sudio at my house at my disposal. I can create music and record it whenever I want. Thanks to internet radio stations like Jango (the one I use frequently) I get to know new music made by unknown artists. I can even leave a comment on their songs and get a response from them. And you know what? Maybe I will put up some music up there myself too.
Yes, times are changing. As they have done since the beginning of time. And will continue to do so, no matter what any of us does...
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Glad you got a sense of humor.
The next check I got from them was worth twice as much (exactly). Whoo Hoo
Then the next one more than doubled.
Told the wife if it kept doubling twice a year I'd retire happy. She started laughing. Then I showed her the math; 20 years down the road 89k checks twice a year would do nicely..(I was young then)
Instead I got a nice shoulder bag (worth far more than the checks combined) and later a notice they were shutting down.
Others here know what company I'm talking about.
That was a funny venture.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Things change and will always change. There was a time when I went to work with a tenor sax in one hand, an alto in another and a flute tucked under my arm. We played 6 nights a week in night clubs generally from 9PM to 2AM and the clubs were jammed. The minimum size for a band with a sax player was 4, and more often than not I was in bigger bands than that, up to 7 pieces.
Now I'm in a duo with my wife. We were in a 5 piece band together, until the money and personnel problems caused us to rethink. I started making my own backing tracks with an Atari computer and a sequencer, before Band-in-a-Box was available. Musicians told me I was putting other musicians out of work with that box, and I told them I was putting a musician to work with that box -- me! Some of those same musicians are now purchasing my BiaB style disks and Fake Disks. Yes, the times they are a-changing.
And in the duo, we schlep all the equipment ourselves. And since I play sax, guitar, wind synth, flute and Leilani plays guitar and Tactile MIDI Controller, we have a lot of gear to schlep.
And as the economy started to downturn, the gigs got scarcer and the competition for those gigs fiercer. The country can't fight two wars using the national credit card to finance them and have good economy. Nobody has ever been able to do that. When the economy goes down, musicians, restaurants and other optional items suffer.
We're still making a living out of it, and although the money isn't as great as it might have been if I stayed in electronics engineering, the life itself is a lot more enjoyable.
So I'm still making the mortgage payments, I drive new cars but then keep on driving them long after they have been paid off, and there are some other compromises that need to be made. On the other hand, I've seen corporate types laid off with no employment opportunities at all. So while looking at that, I'm not feeling so unlucky at all.
All in all I'm happy being a career musician and if I could go back and change it, I'd still be a musician.
Being a musician is not what I do, it's what I AM.
Insights and incites by Notes ♫
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Quote:
Being a musician is not what I do, it's what I AM.
Insights and incites by Notes ♫
I support the local Jr College music program. The dean once told the students that you go into a music career "..if it is the only thing you can do". I took that comment in the positive spirit that it was intended.  But I do believe you expressed the same sentiment better. 
BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud (Tip: No need to create a SC account to hear music - just hit ESC ).
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Mac!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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