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it is normal and desirable for the buying public to express openly what they they would like to see from a company.
It is normal and desirable for the company to decide for itself whether or not they will do anything the public requests
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It was normal and desirable to have staff meetings and decide if logistically it was desirable to meet reasonable expectations.
It also became almost impossible to explain business decisions to customers. Selling a 30k computer tested and supported with peripherals and tape drives and 24 ports for terminals that were essentially the same as you could buy from Jack's kid who's a computer whiz and is running dbase on the kitchen table killed almost the whole lower end computer market. The government changed and the socialists said only colleges they ran could get cash for job retraining. I sold the business while I could.
We had 3 divisions and 20 employees, and my partner bought me out. Now there are 250 employees and 2 departments. My wife runs one department.
Everyone here seems to think it's cut and dried. Just put those files on your server and bingo, you don't pay for packaging. You don't pay for drives. You save money. YOU THINK? If it was that simple who wouldn't do it. Rule #1 of owning a small business. EVERYONE, even your MOM tells you what you should do. If it was that simple we'd all still be there, making huge amounts of cash.
Work the business model backwards. Office rent, electrical, employee wages, advertising, packaging, taxes, development costs, licensing, etc. Get a number. Add in 20 profit at least. Now the average cost. Come up with annual sales. Figure out the bandwidth requirements, the storage requirements and go to the websites and have a look around for someone with 3000 potential users, website costs and costs for downloads. Look at load factors. 3 releases a year, 2 pc, 1 mac. And what's the backup plan if that company goes down? That's not a problem when you have 2 day North American distribution.
I bet there is a per user cost for downloading too. Maybe check that out.
However it SEEMS so simple right?
John Conley
Musica est vita
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John--no offense, but I wouldn't want to be a customer for your company! It doesn't sound as if you like customers. Your motto seems to be: "The customer is always wrong!" I am sure that you are right about all the pressures and problems of owning a small business, but still, if you aren't friendly to the customers, do not try to please them, , just look at them as pains in your a**, etc., they might not be very happy to do business with you! Now you will say that I am trying to tell you how to run your business. Nope, I wouldn't. Anyhow, back on topic. One poster wrote, that it is possible to get a download only option on the telephone, although not online. Has anyone here done it. How much did it cost? Quote:
It was normal and desirable to have staff meetings and decide if logistically it was desirable to meet reasonable expectations.
It also became almost impossible to explain business decisions to customers. Selling a 30k computer tested and supported with peripherals and tape drives and 24 ports for terminals that were essentially the same as you could buy from Jack's kid who's a computer whiz and is running dbase on the kitchen table killed almost the whole lower end computer market. The government changed and the socialists said only colleges they ran could get cash for job retraining. I sold the business while I could.
We had 3 divisions and 20 employees, and my partner bought me out. Now there are 250 employees and 2 departments. My wife runs one department.
Everyone here seems to think it's cut and dried. Just put those files on your server and bingo, you don't pay for packaging. You don't pay for drives. You save money. YOU THINK? If it was that simple who wouldn't do it. Rule #1 of owning a small business. EVERYONE, even your MOM tells you what you should do. If it was that simple we'd all still be there, making huge amounts of cash.
Work the business model backwards. Office rent, electrical, employee wages, advertising, packaging, taxes, development costs, licensing, etc. Get a number. Add in 20 profit at least. Now the average cost. Come up with annual sales. Figure out the bandwidth requirements, the storage requirements and go to the websites and have a look around for someone with 3000 potential users, website costs and costs for downloads. Look at load factors. 3 releases a year, 2 pc, 1 mac. And what's the backup plan if that company goes down? That's not a problem when you have 2 day North American distribution.
I bet there is a per user cost for downloading too. Maybe check that out.
However it SEEMS so simple right?
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I had the same core of 80 percent of my business through the 17 years I owned it. I dropped the pot smoking, the violent, the ones that called me at 3 a.m. because their hard drive was acting up and they sent the 2 people home from night shift and screamed at my voice mail, the ones who bought terminals from a friend and about 6 months later wanted me to make it work for free because they couldn't ever get it to work, the lawn care guy who got me to do him a data base for every residential property and then bought a hearse and painted it weird and called himself the weedman, then threw a launch party with one of the most famous female porn-stars as his 'main attraction'. You have NO idea.
Lots of good folks, and 90 percent of my work was for 4 core businesses, Bell Canada, a Fitness Club that now has 290 clubs, a major media company (Mcleans magazine publishers), and a major importer of tools from the far east. Off and on a 2 billion buck bank with a Unix transaction back end for customers that is sending random error messages about the UPS?
I bet you dollars to maple syrup that PG music has a big supply of hard drives, because my last 4 or 5 are identical. So once those, which are bought and paid for, are gone, you might just see more in the way of downloads available. That said, there is more moaning about downloads not working, twice a year, than any other regular issue.
Retailers can't refuse customers nor can they cut them off. If I was a retailer I'd cut my 85 year old father off, he can take the entire morning to return a can of beans explaining why, if they will listen. Ten minutes in he's talking about the war years and how they shared a can of beans with water amongst the 4 of them. Lovely.
*Saves the environment - not if the drives are there.
*Cheaper than shipping - not if the cost of burst data transmission is more.
*Better for customers - not if the servers are swamped, it gets slow, and people are calling support screaming.
*Makes sense - not if the point above is happening and the person who downloaded is messing with files that got corrupted through no fault of anyone's, and they phone support and don't get through.
NO business decision is totally easy. Do I drive 2 hours to customer 1 and check their screwy terminal (turns out they installed a fluorescent light and put the comm cable on top of the ballast.) or do I visit my tool supply guy who's going to want to question prices for 2 hours for which I make nothing?
The first business issue every year was, an employee meeting, and a review of customers, potential customers, and revenue. Then the letters. It reduced the stress level.
Best customer was: a fast food joint that used NCR 4 port Unix box to run 3 terminals and a manager's Vt100 compatible one. The first 3 were cash registers. One visit at the outset to tell the electrician what was needed for cables. Second visit, plug in the box, the manager's terminal, crimp 8 cable ends (10 minutes) power up, check the operation with the corporate trainer, back out the door. Total time, one hour twice. Total bill, five grand. Paid in 15 days. Three times a year. One ups failed, once. Computer had been up for 3 years. Changed the UPS, agreed cost for labour, 2k.
My buddy bought a new guitar this week. Went to 3 retailers. Spent 5 days playing every guitar, asking questions, bought a 400 buck one. Think that's a good customer? On the other hand I bought a new yamaha, got advice here, walked in the store, pulled out my visa card, pointed at the guitar I got advised to buy, and walked out the door 10 minutes later. Which would you prefer at Christmas with the phone ringing, the cash swamped?
Too bad the profits from the sale of the business went into investments that got hammered in the recession. At least I can watch it grow back a bit, hoping my 250k in lost 'nut' I squirreled away comes back.
Now that the gov't is kicking in more pension on top of what I get, I'm dropping all the consulting I was doing, I just don't enjoy the stress. If I did it all again, I'd pare more of the customer base, I was doing too many hours, plus working full time as a firefighter. Good thing my wife could run things when I worked.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Quote:
Anyhow, back on topic. One poster wrote, that it is possible to get a download only option on the telephone, although not online. Has anyone here done it. How much did it cost?
It was also possible to get the download only option online which I did for the everything pack for $99.00.
One catch is you must already have the 2010.5 upgrade because of all the extra Real Tracks that came in that package.
I am fortunate enough to upgrade twice a year and I do realize this is not the case for alot of the folks on here. However with the new stretch élastique Pro V2 feature introduced in 2011, it does cut down the amount of space the RT's will take to download in the future.
Brian
BIAB 2026 Ultrapack- Fender Studio Pro 8, Windows 11, Mac Mini M4 with Logic Pro 11, Melodyne Studio, Luna Pro
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Quote:
it does cut down the amount of space the RT's will take to download in the future.
Of course, as PGMusic keeps adding RealTracks and RealDrums, I suspect that it won't take very long to be right back where we were. 
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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Not being that technically minded Im pretty sure in the not to distant future with the advance of faster computer speeds d/loads of 100 gb + will be common place.Im very happy to pay for the hard drive and just plug it in and as already been stated the old one could be used as a back up or as John mentioned reformatted for another use.Frankie
Last edited by tributeman; 01/04/11 08:53 AM.
AMD Athlon 7550 dual core
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Bingo. Great post John, been there, done that. It's amazing how people with all these "great" suggestions make no effort at all to do some basic research on the question. We're talking about a business here, they have legal issues, equipment issues, human resource issues, insurance issues, tons of issues but no, people just love to say "hey man, you should do this..."
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Quote:
Of course, as PGMusic keeps adding RealTracks and RealDrums, I suspect that it won't take very long to be right back where we were.
Yes so true we have no idea what is in store for us next with BIAB & RB
Brian 
BIAB 2026 Ultrapack- Fender Studio Pro 8, Windows 11, Mac Mini M4 with Logic Pro 11, Melodyne Studio, Luna Pro
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Yep, jazzmammal, customers certainly have a perfect right to make suggestions, for improvements they would like to see in the product, or anything else. Of course, the businessman does not have to listen to the suggestions. But a smart one will do so, if he wishes to keep and expand his customer base. Once again though, it would be nice if this thread went back on-topic, rather than ex-businessmen complaining about how customers should not make suggestions. (I wonder why ex? Probably because they did not listen to customer feedback.) Quote:
Bingo. Great post John, been there, done that. It's amazing how people with all these "great" suggestions make no effort at all to do some basic research on the question. We're talking about a business here, they have legal issues, equipment issues, human resource issues, insurance issues, tons of issues but no, people just love to say "hey man, you should do this..."
Bob
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By the way, John, if you do not like to see customer suggestions, you should stay far away from customer forums like this one. Stay far far away from the wish lists! Whereas a smart company like PG Music creates and maintains forums like this, and reads and participates in them, so that they can see what customers want, and take customer suggestions, which ultimately helps their business. I have not been to business school, but I would imagine that one of the most important tents they teach there, is customer satisfaction. You must have been absent that day. Quote:
It was normal and desirable to have staff meetings and decide if logistically it was desirable to meet reasonable expectations.
It also became almost impossible to explain business decisions to customers. Selling a 30k computer tested and supported with peripherals and tape drives and 24 ports for terminals that were essentially the same as you could buy from Jack's kid who's a computer whiz and is running dbase on the kitchen table killed almost the whole lower end computer market. The government changed and the socialists said only colleges they ran could get cash for job retraining. I sold the business while I could.
We had 3 divisions and 20 employees, and my partner bought me out. Now there are 250 employees and 2 departments. My wife runs one department.
Everyone here seems to think it's cut and dried. Just put those files on your server and bingo, you don't pay for packaging. You don't pay for drives. You save money. YOU THINK? If it was that simple who wouldn't do it. Rule #1 of owning a small business. EVERYONE, even your MOM tells you what you should do. If it was that simple we'd all still be there, making huge amounts of cash.
Work the business model backwards. Office rent, electrical, employee wages, advertising, packaging, taxes, development costs, licensing, etc. Get a number. Add in 20 profit at least. Now the average cost. Come up with annual sales. Figure out the bandwidth requirements, the storage requirements and go to the websites and have a look around for someone with 3000 potential users, website costs and costs for downloads. Look at load factors. 3 releases a year, 2 pc, 1 mac. And what's the backup plan if that company goes down? That's not a problem when you have 2 day North American distribution.
I bet there is a per user cost for downloading too. Maybe check that out.
However it SEEMS so simple right?
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I hope we can get this threat back from being the "ex-businessmen complain about customers" thread, back to the original topic. Does anyone know about Mac's statement below? Is that still possible by phone? (I do not mean the special 2010.5 only option that is available online, but a 2010-11 option.) Anyone tried it? Quote:
I understood it to be the case that if you *contacted pgmusic sales directly* on the issue, that they can indeed supply a "download only" delivery.
Has this changed?
--Mac
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I am sure if you call they will setup a download for you, but i doubt it will save you money, cause someone has to set it up, and send you an expiring link. that cost. Hey an upgrade from 2010 on HD cost $139 that is NOTHING!!! Especially when you compare it to the fun one has. A day ticket to an amusment park is approaching that. A movie ticket is $11 a bag of Popcorn and a Soda another $10 So two tickets and two sodas, and one large popcorn is $47 Heck for 2.5 trips to the movies to see a show and you can have BiaB, RBm, and all the toys for a year.!!!
I do not mind paying $140 a year for this hobby! And for those that make money from it. well a no brainer.
I get the sentiment of lowering the cost to users, but what business can survive selling product to cheap.
Think about it, the DAW recording market is a very small pond, and there are a lot of very big ducks in it. Protools, Cubase, Sonar, Reaper, Logic, Garageband, BiaB, and those are just a few to name not counting the little guys, like N-tracks, MTS, and such.
All these split up a very limited resource pool. With all that goes into RB, and BiaB the cost of RTs and such i think the upgrade prices are perfect and if they get the size dowbn so we can download i would do that and load it on my 2010 HD and keep the 2011 for a while, and rotate them.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
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Gee, it might be because I'm 60, and retired?
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Quote:
I hope we can get this threa(d) back ... to the original topic.
Does anyone know about Mac's statement below? Is that still possible by phone?
To answer your question -
Yes, PGMusic has, in the past, had different product delivery options available over the phone compared to online. (I don't agree that's a good idea but they have done that.)
And yes, if one has asked, PGM will supply links to file downloads.
And, as I've posted in other threads, AFAIC, with the amount of data we're dealing with now, unless we soon get to Gigabit connections, we're past the point of downloads.
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Quote:
I am sure if you call they will setup a download for you, but i doubt it will save you money, cause someone has to set it up, and send you an expiring link. that cost.
Really--you are saying that the cost of setting up a download, is more than the cost of a hard drive, and setting it up??
And if you get the hard drive option, the download option is still there! So download is set up in any case. Don't tell me the cost to the company is the same.
Of course many may prefer the hard drive. Just saying it is good to have different options. And yes, download only should be considerably cheaper than a HDD, and DVD would be in between those.
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I read that latest BIAB UPak was about 40Gb installed so thought I could just about download it. I may be wrong but it seemed the installers were about twice the size of the installed files.
Not a techie - but thought installers usually more compressed - though I guess the RTs wont take much compression.
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They come full size at this point. They are not compressed but there are more of them, so they will still work in 2010, etc
The disk saving is done inside the 2011 program, so for now it is safest to give the download as full size. Even in 2011, some users need the full size to have the program run smoothly. In order to take advatnage of the savings, your system must be able to run the new Elastique stretching efficiently. So you get the full size, test to see if they work OK for you at smaller size, then erase the un-needed files.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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