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I would not pick up some guy who just ran out of the bank after robbing it, and drive him off to some remote place.
Why should I help people who steal Band in a Box or any other PGmusic software?
How often do you say, 'contact customer support' and then eventually the user gets it sorted out with a little help from an aider or abetter?
I re-iterate my desire to see users registered. I've no problem then if the fields showing where they come from are allowed to be blanked out, I don't really care where you come from but knowing you are from some country with another language can help in formulating a reply.
And as to the net, facebook, twitter (I don't), messaging, skypeing, etc. there needs to be more tolerance. Sometimes that remark you took offence or offense to, was a jest, or oblique humour. Heaven knows we need more humour in our lives, but the politically correct nut jobs are after anyone who makes a remark about anyone. Heaven knows I have a trombone and know how to use it (sort of) but I make trombone jokes ALL THE TIME, the regular 4 who sit behind me in band are just bad boys, always joking and talking and making me miss what the director is telling me, and then I get in on it...so WHAT? Some trombonist is going to sue my backside. I take it all back, I'm going to have get a hidden face, a fictional town, and call myself jean-de-nowwhere! (I'm KIDDING HELLO!)
So I guess I presented 2 dilemas, would you give a helping hand to a thief, and I lament the political correctness people, for as (I believe) Rowan Atkinson said, "every joke has a victim.", and who is leading a campaign that might just outlaw all humour in the UK.
Perhaps you've not been aware, but google Band in a Box + torrent...here's an example of stolen software...
*link removed*
Last edited by pgmoderation; 12/30/10 09:37 AM.
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Hi John,
I've been using this software since it first came out on the Atari then on to the PC. Why give help to a thief?
Unregistered Users = Perspective Buyers?
Wayne,
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I forgot the thieves can vote. In that the anonymous users outnumber the registered users, many of whom are not really registered users but put something like BIGfatcheeseburger as their registered name from nowhere, but actually a professor of music at x. Nice.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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I am still a bit conflicted about this. There's no doubt illegal is illegal and that's it.
I do believe a lot of people will "steal" things off the web but then will buy it later. They do this as a way of demoing something. Case in point is my long time assistant in my office. George started working for me as a somewhat immature but smart 19 year old and he's now a very smart young man of 28 and is getting married soon (man, how time flies!). Like every young person I know he's a computer and internet wizard. It's like a rite of passage. Anything I want to know concerning gaming the system or figuring out my new phone he knows all about. Surprisingly he's also very straight, doesn't drink, no drugs, he's a pretty solid citizen. He uses various ways to download mostly illegal movies and music but he's told me several times he also has an extensive DVD and music collection. There's so many movies that look good but really are not he wants to download them first to see if he wants to buy the DVD. DVD's have a lot of extras besides the movie itself and he likes that.
There's also plenty of people who are just curious but not really interested enough to buy software so they download it just to see what it is and then never use it again. Those really are not potential customers so it's no loss to the company.
Does all of this add up to a net positive to the studios and other companies like PG or is it a net loss? I sure don't know and nobody else can figure that out either. It looks like PG is thinking it's a net positive, that's why they don't use any kind of authorization protocol.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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It is a real issue. one thing I don't like is when people steal good software companies go out of business. I personally always buy my software mainly because I like to support the companies who are bringing me the great software........Something to be added to the mix is that there are a lot of honest people being screwed by software companies due to their anti piracy devices....I owned autotune (anteres)...I say owned past tense because I became so disgusted I deleted it and will never do business w/them again) I bought the software legally and then had to buy an ilok which worked the first time for about a month, cost me $50 to have it fixed, the second one worked for about a week. there are no people to talk to so If I want to use what I bought and now paid 80 extra to get to use (30 for original ilok 50 for replacement) I have to pay 50 dollars again. ...I must say I truly appreciate the way P.G. music runs their company..There has always been a person to talk to to resolve technical issues and they are more concerned with putting out great software than they are about thieves.....But I do agree that stealing is wrong....In a way though for a software company it is almost as if dealing with petty thieves is part of the cost of doing business ,kind of like owning a store in the middle of a bad neighborhood...either hire an in store cop and calculate his salary into the cost of doing business or put up with some thieves and calculate that in.
...........Jeff......
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Hey guys I know no one voted me forum police, but links to torrents and piracy discussion ...:  Forum Rules: [6.Pornography, warez, piracy, software hacking, or any other illegal transactions may NOT be linked in any shape or form ]
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For me to be a potential customer, you need to give me at least some sort of free trial period, or as is the case with PGMusic, a 30-day money back guarantee. I'm not going to lay down big bucks for software that I may never use (although, interestingly, I have laid down big bucks for software that I ended up not using very much, or even at all). But that was my choice...  Back it the DOS days, I really liked the shareware concept. Try before you buy. And if I liked it, I bought it. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who don't [buy it]. I also suspect there are a lot of people that illegally download the software just to add to their collection, and then never use it. Yes, it's an illegal copy, but I doubt it's a lost sale. Likewise for music, unless it's a group I already know, I also want to hear the music before I buy it. If I like it, I'll buy it (he says some 1500 vinyl albums, 800 cassettes, and 2000 CDs later).
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2025/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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Journeyman
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Over the years I've lost friends and business, because I wouldn't copy or install software programs for them. They felt I was cheap and selfish. As if everything I had I got for free.
As far as PG Music Software, these are my tools. Tools cost money.
Wayne,
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Quote:
It is a real issue. one thing I don't like is when people steal good software companies go out of business. I personally always buy my software mainly because I like to support the companies who are bringing me the great software........Something to be added to the mix is that there are a lot of honest people being screwed by software companies due to their anti piracy devices....I owned autotune (anteres)...I say owned past tense because I became so disgusted I deleted it and will never do business w/them again) I bought the software legally and then had to buy an ilok which worked the first time for about a month, cost me $50 to have it fixed, the second one worked for about a week. there are no people to talk to so If I want to use what I bought and now paid 80 extra to get to use (30 for original ilok 50 for replacement) I have to pay 50 dollars again. ...
You just nailed the conundrum for a software company and I don't know if there's an answer. My understanding is the only kind of copy protection that really works and stops the hackers is hardware based and virtually every one of those I read about suck. All internet based call/response type of authorization using codes get hacked by keygens.
Most software companies start out with a couple of college kids working out of a dorm. Even if they turn it into something there's no way they can hire enough people to handle customer support questions and if they try, they can't make enough money to be worth it. So, they're faced with two choices, they get stolen to death or they get expensed to death. Either way they die. The trick seems to be to survive long enough to get bought out for enough to either retire or to stake a new venture.
I think PG is surviving because they started way before the internet was a problem and they had time to build up a loyal customer base before all this crap happened. If Peter were starting now it probably wouldn't work.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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I don't think that creating an "unregistered user" forum is practical, because who's going to post there? And who's going to bother to answer? It's the same problem with the idea of creating an .xxx domain extension - if it ever happened, the first thing that would take place would be that it would be locked down so no one could get to it. Quote:
Why should I help people who steal Band in a Box or any other PGmusic software?
You've got no obligation to help anyone on this forum. For those that choose to do it - yourself included - thanks!
But PG doesn't currently require anyone on the forum to prove they're a registered user. So for you to personally go on the attack against someone you suspect is not a registered user seems to me to cross a line.
The danger isn't so much to the person who's posted the question as it is to other people who run across what's seen as a hostile thread. It takes very little to destroy good will between a company and its customers.
As was pointed out on another thread, the "PG Music" logo confuses people - myself included - into thinking that they are getting an "official" response from the company itself.
I believe that the vast majority of warez users were never potential users of the software in the first place. Creating draconian policies against these sorts of folks often backfires against your own customers.
Similarly, I think trying to root these folk out of the forum creates an air of hostility that also is harmful in the long run.
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I did the poll. The last question is too limited, IMHO. I think some people, who are potential customers, may have valid questions before they purchase. If there is a software program that has some features that BIAB does not have, they certainly would want to ask if BIAB has those features before purchasing. They may not be musicians or have much musical knowledge which would certainly have some bearing on how effectively they could learn and use BIAB. Questions about the learning curve are relevant, IMHO.
Like John, I think the 30 day trial is really fair and helpful. If you get a trial version with limited features, you may find that you cannot make a meaningful evaluation. Putting on a time limit is better, IMO. I might be wasteful, but if I think the program is worthwhile, I just buy the paid version without spending much time on the trial. I have tried some that I just uninstalled within a very short time of trying them out. FWIW. I don't think that I could really decide on BIAB via a trial version. In my case even 30 days would not make me knowledgeable.
stan
Cornet Curmudgeon
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The same difficulty faces us original music creators...a lot of people show us the enjoy our work by stealing it...I think it all boils down to honesty. P.g. music has enough honest pg music fans to keep it running. I personally believe that is because over the years p.g. music has always cared about its customers. I can remember calling the support hot line back in the late 90s when they had someone there answering the phone to help me. someone in Canada not outsourced help. I can still get that help today. they read what it is that we write on the wish list forums and they are in it to win our business. I believe that that is the great business model. there are other great softwares on the market but none that I feel treats me with as much respect...it is a loyalty thing:)
...........Jeff......
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Quote:
So, they're faced with two choices, they get stolen to death or they get expensed to death.
That's not entirely true. For example, Reaper allows the user to continue to use the product past the 30 day trial period with no degradation in features other than a nag screen. There's really no incentive to go to a warez site to download it.
So why do people buy software in the first place, instead of using a free version? I think it's important not to discount the social aspect. One thing that often distinguishes great software is a supportive community. With computer software, that often takes the form of on-line forums. I believe that forums are instrumental to selling software. People want to belong, and buying software buys them into that community.
BiaB has an outstanding community on the forums, and that's part of what makes buying the software a compelling purchase. (In addition to being a great program with a liberal pricing model and responsive customer support). 
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On balance Dave, I think you're right. As to the PG logo in some folks avatars I also agree it's confusing. The only one I'm aware of that does have some kind of official affiliation with the company is Mac. Maybe the others do too, I don't know.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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It's not the logo avatar that separates PGMusic staff.
Under their user name is "Team PG " where regular users say 'Veteran', 'Journeyman', etc.
They also tend to have a different color font for their username when they post.
Last edited by rharv; 12/28/10 12:02 PM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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The question that struck me most is, "Do you favour the phrase "Registered User" being added to the forum?"
Should "Registered User" be added to my name?
RedGuitars, "Registered User"
Wayne,
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I meant to differentiate between registering for the forum under ...goofball.... with no other info, and being a registered owner of the software...
My Bad.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Downloading, uploading and/or using software without having the proper licenses is illegal and wrong! A lot of (most all) young people however think it's completely OK for them to do so " 'cause everybody's doing it". I have even seen DJ's doing (paid) shows using cracked software and all illegal mp3's. Funny thing is that when I asked if I could use their name and logo to do drive-in shows they said "Of-course not! That's OUR name and logo. We invented the name and created the logo." When I pointed out they stole software and music they said that that was OK; everybody can download those on the internet.
It would be nice to have a (limited) usable demo of BiaB, RB and PTPA. This way people can testdrive the software without having to buy the software first. We as regular PG-customers know that the service is outstanding and that PG will keep their word on the 30-day money back guarantee. But new prospects don't have that confidence yet and many of them may be scared out of buying the software.
There really is no excuse for software piracy. There are a lot of different products on the market in all price-ranges and some of them are even free. If you want to add reverb, delay, compression and eq on a vocal track you don't have to download a cracked version of Waves Mercury bundle; there are plenty of alternatives you can use. Be it already embedded in your DAW, a cheaper set of VST's or even free legal VST's.
(having said that; I did try a cracked version of Cubase for 4 weeks because there was no other way to try the software. ANd Cubase is way too expensive to buy, try and trash! I had PTPA 12 already as my DAW but I wanted to use the controller functionality of my Yamaha 01X. After 4 weeks I removed the cracked software and bought a Cubase 5 license. Nowadays they have a demo-version, so I now would never have used the cracked version. I did a very detailed spyware, malware and virusc-heck after removing the crack, I tell ya!)
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I agree with almost everything that has been said here so far. I first learned about BIAB when somebody gave me an illegal copy... and I'm glad he did, because I liked it and bought it. I am very busy, and the usual 30 day demo period is not enough time for me to experiment. Usually once I install the demo, I get one brief period of exploration, then I don't make it back before the demo expires. And I have noticed that PG stands alone in their decision NOT to protect the software... they COULD, yet they don't. Personally, I think this accounts for a great deal of the good will enjoyed by the company.
Somebody mentioned the social aspect and the online support. If the forum had levels of authorization, allowing unregistered (supposedly non-owners and seekers) to get enough access to ask questions that would help them decide whether or not to buy, while simultaneously allowing registered users more access, I think that would add value to the owners without making life difficult for everyone by having to deal with protection schemes.
I agree that many who pirate software are not potential customers. Iknow a lot of teens who pirate software routinely... but they have no budget for it. However, they are building proficiency with THAT software, not other software, and when they reach a point in life where they will buy, it will probably be the software they already know. The shareware principle is alive and well.
More in another post
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In spite of all that has been said so far, I do think there is a generational difference in attitudes toward software. The older generation is much more inclined to buy what they like, whether they first learn about it illegally or through normal advertizing.
I know I'm about to make a huge generalization here, but I believe that on average the generalization stands true under scrutiny, even though it does not apply to all.
I have noticed a trend among my kids' friends (who grew up with online privileges and learned much by simply taking and using whatever they could find on the web) that they have more of a disdain for copyright laws than their adult counterparts. The adults tend to see it as a "letter of the law vs. spirit of the law" issue, but the kids see it as anarchy, there should be no law at all.
Until recently, the MIDI aspect of BIAB appealed to the generation who grew up with MIDI. My kids never liked MIDI. They gravitated toward all the music apps that deal with audio. Now that BIAB is more powerful as an audio app than most of the alternatives, I suspect that the young crowd will be more interested. But the question is, will they buy it? or steal it?
Even among young men of such age where they DO have a budget for software, I've encountered many who simply do not believe they should have to pay for software. There is a growing trend of thought that intellectual property is a proletariat manifestation that needs to be knocked down for the good of the people, and that really causes me some concern for the future.
Last edited by Pat Marr; 12/28/10 01:56 PM.
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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We’ve added new RealTracks across bro country, Americana, praise & worship, vintage country, and songwriter piano. Highlights include Brent Mason (electric guitar), Eddie Bayers (drums), Doug Jernigan (pedal steel), John Jarvis (piano), Glen Duncan (banjo, mandolin & fiddle), Mike Harrison (electric bass) and more—offering everything from modern sounds to heartfelt Americana styles
Check out all the 202 New RealTracks (in sets 456-467)
And, if you are looking for more, the 2025 49-PAK (for $49) includes an additional 20 RealTracks with exciting new sounds and genre-spanning styles. Enjoy RealTracks firsts like Chinese instruments (guzheng & dizi), the bandoneon in an authentic Argentine tango trio, and the classic “tic-tac” baritone guitar for vintage country.
You’ll also get slick ’80s metal guitar from Andy Wood, modern metal with guitarist Nico Santora, bass player Nick Schendzielos, and drummer Aaron Stechauner, more praise & worship, indie-folk, modern/bro country with Brent Mason, and “Songwriter Americana” with Johnny Hiland.
Plus, enjoy user-requested styles like Soul Jazz RealDrums, fast Celtic Strathspey guitar, and Chill Hop piano & drums!
The 2025 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2025 49-PAK!
Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Mac!
With your version 2025 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons FREE! Or upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2025 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 33 new RealTracks and 65+ new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 29 new RealTracks and 45+ new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 20 new RealStyles.
- Look Ma! More MIDI 13: Country & Americana
- Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 44: Jazz Piano
- Artist Performance Set 17: Songs with Vocals 7
- Playable RealTracks Set 4
- RealDrums Stems Set 7: Jazz with Mike Clark
- SynthMaster Sounds and Styles (with audio demos)
- 128 GM MIDI Patch Audio Demos.
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyles,
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster,
- Instrumental Studies Set 23: More '80s Hard Rock Soloing,
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster
- Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8
- RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®!
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Mac!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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