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nonchai, let me also make a suggestion. Please carefully read John Fords post. It will help you understand the core differences between the plugin, and BiaB. The render times are actually behind the curtain very similar. Since the plugin waits for the generation to be completed, and BiaB allows the playback to begin while generation continues it gives the impression that it is slower. This is because they were made differently for different reasons.

Both allow for tracks to be completed to create music. BiaB was made to allow the music to be changed and altered quicklly. Keep in mind that drop and drag is a somewhat new feature in Biab. Drop and drag is the whole point in the plugin. Working in the DAW is its only purpose.

Suggestion, when tinkering with a song if want to make small changes like try a different guitar, or add a organ, and such this can be done in the plugin before dragging tracks, and just that track can be generated which is usually much faster. Chord and major structural changes will take longer. If you need to do that use BiaB. If I want to cut on 2x4 I use my skill saw. If I need to cut 100 pieces I get out my Chop saw, set up a stop block and start cutting.

Point being drag and drop was added to BiaB for this reason so folks could tinker and experiment and when they got precisely what they needed drag to DAW. The plugin was created for a different purpose some DAW users that didn’t want to use BiaB, or dig in and learn it, or just wanted to quickly add tracks to the DAW the plugin was created so they would have a tool for that.

I personally have done a ton of testing and multiple songs in the plugin. My usual regeneration time on my old laptop is maybe 2 to 3 minutes sometime 5 for a real big project. I’m not put off with that. Do I wish it was a tad faster, yes. But I can deal with it since I understand what it is doing for me. If I had to generated these same track with several other VSTis it would take far longer than 5 minutes. And if I had to make a change to the track due to added chorus, different chords or the like I would have to make those same changes in several different VSTIs then once again 5 minutes would be a blessing.

I appreciate where your coming from, but respectfully think you are not seeing the big picture. Until the plugin was added this had to be done either in BiaB, or done with various other plugins.

On a side note there are other programs that do the whole thing in one box. Captain chords, scaler, etc. and while they do a decent job, even a good one, they don’t have 10% of the capability of BiaB. Finally this thread was not started to hammer out these type issues but to garner support for the express purpose of encouraging PGM to fix the basic advertised and promised feature bugs in the plugin. We can discuss render times and how to work with that on another thread.


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Quote:
Over 20 minutes vs 10 seconds to generate 9 chorus song in plugin vs standalone

9 x 72bars 4/4 @ 40bpm
what's that over an hour play time ?

Now in BB open that song again without play/generating it and go straight to Render tracks then time it until you have all the tracks as wav or aif

Last edited by Pipeline; 03/14/20 09:53 AM.
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Great test to understand the render time differences. Thanks


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Tighten your seatbelts guys now that Mac 2020 Is released, and wow really early this year. I expect to see some love for the backend features in the plugin.

I think it is appropriate to give PGM a round of applause. They really dug in and covered some ground. We and I really include myself in this comment rode them hard, and pressured for a fix. Well the PGM lead by Peter and the team put in some hard work, and really gave themselves some breathing room for this cycle. Now if they do what I think they are doing and address the plugin issues this could be one of the best cycles yet.

Thanks to everyone who posted here and kept this thread alive. We all really want PGM to continue to thrive into the next generation, and tapping into the DAW users market can help in that area.

Last edited by Rob Helms; 03/17/20 03:32 PM.

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It will be great when it works as advertised.

I.M.H.O. it will not only greatly improve the workflow between the DAW especially if they get the 300 RD to work and the direct input option to work, but will drive more impromptu desires such as regenerating bars for a selected region.


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Originally Posted By: jpettit
I timed the render in the Plugin compared to exporting the same separate tracks for the above-mentioned test song in BiaB and the results are similar.

https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=585534#Post585534


Yes I agree that the export to audio times are Pretty much identical to BIAB stand alone. But thats not how I want to use the plugin. I want to have waiting times to playback - PLAYBACK be the same as in BIAB standalone. I don't want to be forced to be dragging ANY audio files into the DAW at all. I rely on the directly streamed audio. And just as for standalone - theres no reason this couldnt be done same as standalone eventually.

The whole heft of my points are concerting the simple task of making changes to the arrangement and then getting into a state where one can start to play with or use the result.

The basic implication behind what a lot of the people responding here all the "apples and oranges" talk... seems to be that the plugin wasn't "intended" to be so and so.... I find this to be a lame excuse.

Maybe for those putting forward these apples and oranges arguments they never had the intent or expectation to use the plugin with the same kind of M O as BIAB standalone - where the NON RENDERED TO DISK waiting times are fine and useable but RENDERED TO DISK waiting times are so slow that one only does it when everything is finalised. But here's the thing. When in BIAB standalone one gets the advantage of a rapid change-and-test cycle and then when ready do the slow export.

But people suggesting that one shouldn't also expect the same to be possible in the plugin clearly expect people like me to have TWO apps open at the same time - BIAB Standalone AND the plugin.

This is ridiculous. Specially after V2. since there are now enough features from BIAB standalone in the plugin to allow us to do a lot of song creation and arranging in just a DAW+plugin workflow.
Its just the waiting time that makes this M O impractical.

Think if any other plugin that exists out there which is some kind of music-arrangement creator - like Propellerheads REASON plugin - Native Instruments MASCHINE - and you will not see this artificial "apples and oranges" demarcation between their Standalone version of their technology and the plugin.

I might add that its a little disappointing that even in v 2.0 there's no multi-channel output feature in there yet. We are talking about a plugin that sits in a DAW that generates audio for multiple tracks - instruments - yet only provides stereo in the live real-time audio streamed into the DAW.

Name any other plugin where the producer-user would be expected to do this dragging and dropping of data ( whether audio or MIDI ) into the DAW tracks - for the plugin to work. It doesn't happen.
Yes many have drag and drop features typically for MIDI export. But its not the NORMAL method in which the user is expected to use the plugin.

PG Music have form in using words in a very loose fashion. Many years back they added a kind of "plugin-mode" to be able to drag audio file data into a DAW. That wasn't a plugin at all.
Now we have an actual plugin - but one which barely operates as any plugin that internally generates multiple parts of audio would do. Its a kind of half-arsed compromise.


Last edited by nonchai; 03/19/20 11:17 PM.

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You should of suggested all this years ago to give them heads up, I was the one that pushed for years for the Plugin as I was using RealBand that uses bbw2 in the same way for years so I suggested doing it the same way using bbw2 for the Plugin. After it was released I suggested play from RAM so all you can do is wait.

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Nonchai, if you want to request things like this please start a new thread, either here or in the wish or request forum. This thread is for discussion and hopefully resolution of the previously promised items for this years and last years release. I understand what you want. So feel free to ask for it through the proper channels. There might be others that will support you. What we are trying to do here is get the things that have already been implemented to function properly, before requesting anything new.


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Noted.


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Nice, that help all understand what we asking for in fixes. Hopefully that’s what is happening behind the scenes.


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FYI IMHO the priority of fixing the features that do not work based on how DAW users would want to work with the plugin renders.
1) MIDI version of the drums would be a big bonus to allow for Multitrack mixing/replacing of drums.
2) Dry (no reverb) mixes are important to use the more sophisticated reverbs in the DAW.
3) Adding embed tempo just saves a step of manually entering that data in order to adjust tempos after the dropping files into the DAW.
4) Center pan stereo tracks allow the DAW user to do their own positioning of the track.
5) Dry tracks allow DAW users to add their own AMp simulators to fine tun the distortion.
6) This allows the DAW user to work within the plugin to change the instrument mix for verses, pre-chorus, chorus, and bridges.
7) This allows the DAW user to work within the plugin to change the drum mix for verses, pre-chorus, chorus, and bridges.

The rest get us to a point where any song made in BiaB would play identical in the plugin.



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+1 on all above


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+++1 on above as well

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This is why you need a Tempo Embedded (what PGM calls Acidized) in the Plugin Options to work.

MIDI files always have tempo embedded. (you don't get choice)
Audio files without tempo will not sync to each other if you change the tempo while in the DAW. (Studio One, Cakewalk, Reaper V6)

This is important to a DAW user as they continue to develop their song.



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Because these Options still do not work the DAW user cannot make choices about panning or reverb.
It is also important to note that they can not try to make these changes in BiaB and Import the song to be Rendered.
At the moment you are stuck with PGM mix from the plugin.
These are some of the first things a DAW user is going to want.


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Attention PGM development!!!! We have seen some work done on the front end by Adar, and thanks to him for that. But we have yet to see one single fix from the back end developers. I ask is this not going to happen? If there is going to be no further progress this year then please tell us. So we can stop asking and posting and hoping.

Several of us here have invested a lot of time and effort into figuring out, and detailing the base features needed to make this plugin totally useable. I for one have several projects that I want to do that will go much better if the features listed actually worked. I don’t enjoy having to “trick” the tools into doing what it should. I just wish you folks would break silence and let us know what is happening. Is it to much to ask for you to at the very least let us know what you intend to do about this. If you have no intention on fixing these things just say so, and we will save our virtual breath. Move on use other means to accomplish what we need and save frustration.

This down time for the world is the perfect time to accomplish this so many people are sitting around with time to create. You could pick up many new DAW users who have time to explore this option.

Finally please, just communicate with your customers.

Last edited by Rob Helms; 04/11/20 12:46 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Rob Helms
Attention PGM development!!!! We have seen some work done on the front end by Adar, and thanks to him for that. But we have yet to see one single fix from the back end developers. I ask is this not going to happen? If there is going to be no further progress this year then please tell us. So we can stop asking and posting and hoping.

Several of us here have invested a lot of time and effort into figuring out, and detailing the base features needed to make this plugin totally useable. I for one have several projects that I want to do that will go much better if the features listed actually worked. I don’t enjoy having to “trick” the tools into doing what it should. I just wish you folks would break silence and let us know what is happening. Is it to much to ask for you to at the very least let us know what you intend to do about this. If you have no intention on fixing these things just say so, and we will save our virtual breath. Move on use other means to accomplish what we need and save frustration.

This down time for the world is the perfect time to accomplish this so many people are sitting around with time to create. You could pick up many new DAW users who have time to explore this option.

Finally please, just communicate with your customers.

+1

Well said Rob. Maybe they are mostly done with it.

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Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
Originally Posted By: Rob Helms
Attention PGM development!!!! We have seen some work done on the front end by Adar, and thanks to him for that. But we have yet to see one single fix from the back end developers. I ask is this not going to happen? If there is going to be no further progress this year then please tell us. So we can stop asking and posting and hoping.

Several of us here have invested a lot of time and effort into figuring out, and detailing the base features needed to make this plugin totally useable. I for one have several projects that I want to do that will go much better if the features listed actually worked. I don’t enjoy having to “trick” the tools into doing what it should. I just wish you folks would break silence and let us know what is happening. Is it to much to ask for you to at the very least let us know what you intend to do about this. If you have no intention on fixing these things just say so, and we will save our virtual breath. Move on use other means to accomplish what we need and save frustration.

This down time for the world is the perfect time to accomplish this so many people are sitting around with time to create. You could pick up many new DAW users who have time to explore this option.

Finally please, just communicate with your customers.

+1

Well said Rob. Maybe they are mostly done with it.


Don't hold your breath whistle

PS - I do hope that they are working on this as it could be the wave of the future for PGMusic.


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John to the third power, I couldn’t agree more I also hope they are working on this. I guess where I’m at is I have been hoping for that since December. I really do hope so, but I am frustrated that we can’t even get any confirmation as to “if”or “when” or ”not” or whatever.

Mario you are on the money.

I want to add that I don’t mean to be so negative but it is getting very frustrating. We finally get a new version it is more broken than the previous one. And I do not blame Adar for that. There is only so much he can do. Most of the feature fixes are backend development issues.


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